Baiting and provocation of girls and women

[Stickytoff]

I grew up in a very misogynistic environment. Both of my parents were deeply misogynistic. I also had two older brothers who would persistently use sexist baiting and provocation against my sister and me. However it wasn’t just them, TV programmes at the time had constant female put downs and jibes and culturally in other environments it was there too for example my FIL was pretty masterful at the same behaviour.

I was listening to the Jordan Peterson interview with Helen Joyce and he refers to the increased neuroticism identified in personality studies in women and to be fair to him I definitely see it in my own friends and I wonder if growing up with that level of hostility is part of the reasons women display this.

I am trying to understand if this is a personal bias given that I experienced an extreme version of it growing up in a deeply misogynistic environment or if it is the norm for girls and women.

Well it probably doesn't help to grow up in an environment that is openly hostile to you because of your sex. I don't think that level of open hostility is present for the majority of women, although I have no evidence for that.

The reported differences in those personality aspects are averages, and the differences are not large. They become smaller when self reporting is not used as the method of collecting data.

That is very interesting Roses about the low level for variation and the fact that in most cases it is self reported which of course may mean that women could be more aware of their emotional states and more self reflective.

I was speaking to my daughter and she was saying how shocking she finds TV from “my era” for example with its sexism and very vocally gendered expectations. I think the level of misogyny I experienced was definitely specific to my upbringing but I do think the hostile culture was there.

I've always been puzzled (and dismayed) by female misogynists. How low their opinion of their own sex must be to be like that. Of course, I've heard about internalised misogyny, but it seems counter intuitive. If you are in the company of a misogynist e.g. married to one, I would have thought it would have sent you in the other direction, unless you were incredibly weak willed.

increased neuroticism identified in personality studies

I grew up in a family where there wasn’t much misogyny on show, though of course it was always background noise (even within me - I think it’s so ingrained we don’t notice) and remains so.

I have found adult life very frustrating as I assumed misogyny was on the wane, but it was merely better hidden in the eighties than it was in the seventies. Doubtless my growing anger and frustration could be misdiagnosed as neuroticism by someone who didn’t believe the misogyny I’ve experienced throughout my adult life was real.

I didn't think I was misogynistic until it occurred to me that I like to watch the men's football world cup, but not the women's.

Which is a shame as the English women's team internationally are better than the men's.

But I was shocked when I realised that.

@flyingbuttress43 I think it’s a mistake to ascribe views you disagree with to a character or moral failing. Generally you’ve a better chance of understanding other views if you look for commonality first.

I suspect that survival instincts play an enormous role - not every one will instinctively fight back; some will freeze, flee or fawn. In a world of fighting males, cultivating the protection of a powerful one is a sensible strategy employed by weaker males as well as females. I think internalised misogyny makes sense in that framework.

@PriOn1 I can relate. Growing up in the 80s and early 90s - adulthood has been increasingly disappointing.

The internet has just exacerbated the problem so yes I do think a lot of the increased issues with women is they have to live in a very misogynistic world and men just getting worse and worse.

When I was in my teens in the 90's I was never harassed so much on the street than I was in my 30's. You can't tell me it's getting better, it's getting worse. The amount of men that are just porn sick, the gaming world, the way women are portrayed in rap and pop videos, only fans, incel culture and men on the internet whining how women live on "easy mode", queer theory, ...

Even last week I saw women on this forum say they don't see issues with using bitch or cunt as insults.

Misogyny is so normalised that people just can't see it any more.

We really need to bring back respect to women and shame horrible behaviour and fetishes.

I went to a girl's school in the eighties, and we did needleclass, cooking, child minding classes, and typing with the idea that we would likely become secretaries, mums or nannies.

It was incredibly sexist. Im so glad that schools are not like that now.

Although schools that push gender ideology in our current times aren't great either.

Thinking about this, I think it's possible that sexism has changed from stereotypes of what men do and women do to an objectification of women. Porn (and gender ideology) probably ties into that.

But this is purely anecdotal, and not based on any facts.

I've posted about it before but I grew up in a sexist family, being baited by my brother and told to suck it up by my parents.
Eventually I realised there's nothing special about it, its all just bullying; and people do it because they get pleasure from it. Misogynistic women very often aren't just trying to survive. They enjoy the bullying.
Some people like to have a group that is below them, they enjoy the feeling they get from that and they enjoy the feeling of reminding the lower orders of their place.
Sexism just gives bullying a legitimate outlet.

Honestly I think it would be great if cooking, sewing and budgetting/basic accounting would be classes every child gets. Being able to sew on a button and manage finances are good skills to have regardless of what else you choose in life.

While that was very sexist to this day girls aren't quite as supported when they want to be engineers or surgeons this day. Top it off with the gender stuff and unisex bathrooms I'm really not convinced we are doing better now. At least the old sexism still wanted to protect girls from creepy men to a point. I can't believe i'm even saying this. How did we get to here?

*I've posted about it before but I grew up in a sexist family, being baited by my brother and told to suck it up by my parents.

Eventually I realised there's nothing special about it, its all just bullying; and people do it because they get pleasure from it. Misogynistic women very often aren't just trying to survive. They enjoy the bullying.*

this sums up my experience too. The bullying escalated to abuse from one of my brothers and the other continued their sly power plays up until I called our relationship quits only recently. Very unpleasant experience.

@OneMorePlant
While that was very sexist to this day girls aren't quite as supported when they want to be engineers or surgeons this day. Top it off with the gender stuff and unisex bathrooms I'm really not convinced we are doing better now. At least the old sexism still wanted to protect girls from creepy men to a point. I can't believe i'm even saying this. How did we get to here?

I completely agree that the old sexist ways were at least more protective of women and children. I'm also perplexed on how we got to our current situation.

I think we have lost/loosing old core societal values, but I think these were important values. I think these values centred around taking care of the more vulnerable in our society, or trying to improving things for people generally.

Maybe society has slowly become so individualistic that people now don't care about other people, including the vulnerable, as it is all 'me, me, me'.

Mysogynists need women allies to police and hurt women in the places men can't reach them. Its a dirty job, but the superficial rewards can be good, and women are groomed for the role.
A woman living with and colluding with a mysogynist has been trained to see herself as exceptional and superior to other women, not quite but almost, as good as a man. Her privileged position depends on her willingness to other and diminish other women.

Mysogynists need women allies to police and hurt women in the places men can't reach them. Its a dirty job, but the superficial rewards can be good, and women are groomed for the role.

This.

Also if you have been brought up in that culture it is normal to you. It is harder to see that it is wrong.