Julia Long talks to Julian Vigo - what do you think?

[JoodyBlue]

savageminds.substack.com/p/julia-long#details

On the back of recent discussions about Kellie Jay and all the stuff that is mis-said about her I had a look for discussion from Julia Long. This podcast is interesting and definitely worth a listen to the end.

It raises questions for me:

Why are some feminists squeamish about confronting those doing harm directly? Julia makes the point about the lauding of feminist direct action, but only if it is historic.

Second wave feminists often spoke/speak about the importance of naming and of ownership of language, why then are women criticised for refusing language such as male bodied? Why are so many continuing to accept preferred pronouns?

If it is accepted that changing sex is impossible, why is there a lack of appetite for discussing propely what trans means?

At the very end the accusation of taking money from the Heritage Foundation. Again would be really helpful to get to the bottom of that.

The in fighting bothers me. I find that on the whole Kellie Jay is gracious about it. Furthermore many of the current 'big' names have refused to denounce her. But I have found it hard to argue with Julia on any of the points she makes here.

Would love to hear other views.

I will be taking a look at that. Julia Long is one of the best speakers I've ever seen regarding this issue. She is utterly clear, and thinks on her feet at the speed of light.

Of course, everyone knows that correct language is vital, it's one of the main issues. But people appear to have been indoctrinated to such a profound degree, that they still struggle, if they think it's going to be deemed 'offensive'.

So, naturally, anything a TRA doesn't want to hear, or more importantly, doesn't want everyone else to hear, will of course be called offensive for that very reason.

Look how a hand made merkin, with pockets (!), and a pair of tights has been deemed offensive.

You have to shut that woman down, and discredit her protest asap.

Thanks for the link, Joody. It's on the list.

I will listen to this one. Generally I find I am team KJK. I call a man a man and a woman a woman (and use sex based pronouns) however they present themselves and whatever they believe about themselves. I’m keen to avoid jargon and stick to plain English as much as possible. If an adult human has a male body then I am just going with man, none of this male people or male bodied. I am a woman, I definitely don’t want to be referred to as a female bodied person. Having said that I am averse to infighting and conflict and I prefer to avoid saying anything unkind or unhelpful about other women with other language preferences. I just quietly hope that they’ll stop jumping through ideological hoops at some point. I appreciate all the women fighting for reality, freedom of thought and speech, women’s rights, child safeguarding. I appreciate all the men fighting for all the above too, however I haven’t seen so much infighting amongst the men so there doesn’t really feel the same pressure to pick a preferred approach but clarify that when it comes down to it I support them all.

I will listen, but I think the reason people obfuscate is because there has been a concerted effort to deplatform and silence anyone who didn’t. People could get kicked off MN, twitter, lose their jobs, etc, for calling a man a man.

Although there is a large cohort of women who believe it is unkind and unethical to call a man a man, there’s also a significant set who say ‘male-bodied’ rather than lose something important to them, for example, mothers who don’t want to be kicked off MN where they can access instant parenting support online.

I’m listening now. Another great one!

Thanks for posting this.

I just noticed that this podcast is dated 28th July 2021, it is definitely still relevant and worth the listen though now. In the meantime time, I think KS has been conciliatory towards KJK and HJ has attended a SFW event.

Regarding the OP, both JV and JL are okay in the podcast, with people/lobbyists/speakers using certain lingo to get a foot in the door, but they are critical of people who don’t then revert to speaking sense once inside.

I thought the bit at around 33 minutes was very compelling, when JL describes the atmosphere of adulation around men who claim to be a kind of woman in the GC movement, how it was so disturbing witnessing as they were ‘lauded and applauded’, and given special consideration and gratitude, showing how they were still in the minds of women, shaping our thinking, even when they weren’t present, making it impossible to create a cohesive movement.

@EndlessTea yes it is from 2021 but I couldn't find anything more recent. As you say Kathleen now has been supportive of KJK and HJ too. I have no issue with any of the feminist voices. I am grateful for each and every one of them. So I'm very focussed on the issues here. But to hear Julia stating very clearly why KJK takes the stand she does. Also, the stuff about facing head on the sniping that goes on at KJK. I think she is right, accusations need to be clear and specific or not made.

I am total agreement with you OP. I found it satisfying to listen to the explanations of what was happening around doorstepping McBride and the bizarre accusations around the heritage foundation. I love the picture painted, how it seemed almost fated, the opportunity to confront McBride and how it would have been a ‘dereliction of duty’ if they hadn’t, so soon after hearing the horror stories of what was happening to kids being sucked in. Also their characters being so vivid - definitely worth listening to JLs version of events.

I also thought it was interesting that JV got a load of crap too, for defending JL and KJKs actions in America during that visit.

The fact that Helen Joyce and Julie Bindel recently did the talk about ‘TERFs and The Right’, indicates how relevant this podcast still is, especially since there has even been more bullshit about KJK fabricated by the same group of women since.

I'll also listen, thanks Joody.

I was lucky enough to meet Dr Long once and she is truly one of the most approachable and warmest women I have ever met. She is sharp as a whip but doesn't show off if you know what I mean. She is also hilariously funny. I have a lot of time for her.

At the very end the accusation of taking money from the Heritage Foundation. Again would be really helpful to get to the bottom of that.

AFAIK the only instance of any feminist organization anywhere accepting "right-wing coin" was the time in 2016 when Women's Liberation Front accepted a $15,000 grant for legal fees from the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative religious legal group (incidentally the same group representing the female Connecticut high school athletes in their lengthy court case against males in female sports).

WoLF used the ADF grant to cover legal fees in WoLF's lawsuit against the Obama administration over its redefinition of "sex" in Title IX to include "gender identity." The suit became moot when Trump was elected and his administration once again interpreted "sex" in Title IX to mean "sex" only.

Separately, in January 2019, Kellie-Jay Keen and Julia Long joined some of the women from WoLF and other feminist groups for a series of public events and protests in Washington, D.C.

KJK (not sure about Julia Long) sat in the audience for an event at the Heritage Foundation called "The Inequality of the Equality Act: Concerns from the Left." (Still very relevant viewing: )

This event was organized by leftist parents whose children had begun to claim an opposite-sex identity. The Heritage Foundation was not their first choice venue, but they had been turned down by all left and center fora they had approached.

Three women then affiliated with WoLF spoke at this event: Kara Dansky, Jennifer Chavez, and Julia Beck. None was paid to appear.

As far as I can tell, this is the only tenuous thread on which rests Julie Bindel's accusation that Kellie-Jay (or any of the American feminists for that matter) has taken money from the Heritage Foundation: KJK is friendly with WoLF and attended some WoLF members' unpaid speeches at the Heritage Foundation in 2019; WoLF accepted a $15k grant for legal fees from ADF (not Heritage) in 2016. If there is any evidence that KJK (or WoLF or any of the individual women in WoLF) has accepted money from the Heritage Foundation, neither Bindel nor anyone else has ever presented it.

@GrinitchSpinach thanks for that explanation. I have heard KJK talk before about attending that event. To me, it seems entirely in keeping with her activism. Interesting in the podcast that JL says she was told by Jane Clare Jones that she doesn't know how to do politics. I would completely expect these conversations behind closed doors, disagreements on how to proceed, it is normal and to be expected that people in a movement disagree on a way forward. But I would love to see a united front on the issues themselves presented publicly.

Language has to be a priority in my book. @EndlessTea yes, it's quite relevant this podcast I think to current discussions. Language and spaces are what we are talking about. These are the areas that need reclamation.

I think there are a lot of larger questions around how language is used in identity politics, and also how it has been focused on over the last, say, 60 years as a means to try and change reality.

It's not been successful in the way some seemed to have hoped, and it has become something that is arguably quite different from the original intent. More about defining in and out groups, and control of others.

I sometimes think that is the primary aim, rather than whatever the change is in itself, it's about destabilizing language and using it as a stick to beat poeple.

I love Julia Long. She is coherent, clear and speaks truth. When I listen to her I agree with every word she says. I always imagine she's very happy in her skin because she just says it how it is, no obfuscation. Have the utmost admiration and respect for her.

Excellent, going to listen now. I'm a Julia Long fan, she's so clear and logical it's hard to find anything to disagree with.

LOVE Dr Long. After she got Lisa Nandy to answer at hustings
"I think people should be housed in prisons that match their GENDER" in relation to a man who raped children who then went on to identify as a woman.

She's kick ass. Never changed her position, never had to. Unlike me, took a while to throw "be kind" overboard & see this for the misogynistic land grab of womanhood & woman's rights it is.

Another big fan of Dr Long over here!

KJK constantly admits that she’s not interested in reading endless feminist theory or hanging out with (most) feminist academics but it’s clear she is full of respect for and naturally aligned with Julia Long (and Sheila Jeffreys too). KJK and JL are the perfect feminist pairing really, on the surface they lead two very different lives (a lesbian academic and straight stay-at-home mum) but they are brought together by the same fearless, no-bullshitters-welcome-here attitude to the rights and safety of women and girls.

This is probably my favourite Julia Long video (other speakers are Heather Peto who is influential in LGBT Labour and Miles Berry who is a London based private-practice surgeon who does loads of cosmetic mastectomy surgeries:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=693bgCQ3gF8

Can't believe that was an hour long, it seemed to last 5 minutes. I really appreciate JV giving her guests time to speak.

Julia Long was so clear and I could plot my own journey from let's be kind and preface everything I say with an affirmation of my support for trans rights to bollocks to that, trans rights are not my problem but women's rights are.