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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's rights general conversations - Thread 2

1000 replies

Kucingsparkles · 24/12/2022 17:17

Continuation of Thread 1

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
PoppySeedBagelRedux · 14/01/2023 09:05

Ooh must investigate Kuc.

Here's a snippet to make you laugh ironically from today's Times diary, that is very telling about Jan Morris in a number of ways:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/782b3008-936a-11ed-beb4-99fcdfa7645c?shareToken=9ab02f117edb8a2fa74b7b63dbb07dd99_

ExiledElsie · 14/01/2023 09:26

I just followed a few suggestions from YouTube, ended up watching some Jordan Peterson, some worldwrite (battle of ideas) and a few other videos by right leaning people.

It's really interesting to see how far I agree with varied ideas.

mach2 · 14/01/2023 09:32

In a certain space, that makes you alt-right "adjacent" ;-)

Kucinghitam · 14/01/2023 09:51

mach2 · 14/01/2023 09:32

In a certain space, that makes you alt-right "adjacent" ;-)

Yes indeed Smile

Thank goodness I've reached the stage of giving no fucks. No, make that I've gone far beyond that stage.

To be clear, I don't agree with this/that/other/whatever platforms about everything on them. Because that, frankly, would be fucking weird to actual sane reasonable people who aren't Borg.

But having read/watched/listened to a mixture of things, some of which I disagreed with, I didn't implode or suffer agonising mental trauma or poof out of existence.

bignosebignose · 14/01/2023 09:52

Elsie, I can recommend two podcast episodes which you might like if you’ve not already heard them.

Jordan Peterson’s podcast episode 287 from last September Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality.

Marshall Matters (Spectator) podcast from last October. The truth about trans and why sex matters.

In each case, it’s a Bad Person right wing host interviewing Helen Joyce.

SinnerBoy · 14/01/2023 10:23

I'm sure there's a sports thread, but I can't find it, so I'll drop this link here. It looks as though there could be an advance in women's & girls' sport in America, with a lawsuit:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11633255/Female-athletes-DEMAND-NCAA-stop-letting-biological-men-compete-womens-college-sports.html

SinnerBoy · 14/01/2023 10:24

Possible lawsuit in the offing, not mentioned in the article.

duc748 · 14/01/2023 10:35

Jordan Peterson is a shit, and so are the God-awful, Johnson-loving, anti-vaxxing Speccie bunch. I don't think that can be said too often. Doesn't mean I wouldn't read them interviewing someone, or that I think everything in the Daily Hate or Speccie is a lie, though. Remind yourselves of those pages and pages of anti-immigrant headlines in the Mail. That's what these people are like.

Long spoons are required.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/01/2023 10:49

Kucinghitam · 12/01/2023 10:12
If you have an hour to spare, this philosophical dissection of gender ideology (linked on another thread) by Rebecca Reilly-Cooper is absolutely riveting.

(Here you posted the video of Rebecca Reilly - Cooper’s lecture ……. So anyone who wants to see it please find Kucinghitam’s post.)

Thank you very much. I have listened, and it is riveting and as lucid as bright sun and blue sky on a frosty morning.

StephanieSuperpowers · 14/01/2023 11:03

Long spoons are required.

Where is a short spoon ok? Because I'm not seeing anywhere women are treated with dignity and respect in the approved media.

bignosebignose · 14/01/2023 12:08

I agree with some things Peterson says and with some things I read in the Speccie. I disagree with other things. C'est la vie. In that podcast episode, Peterson says some stuff which is questionable but my main criticism is that there were times when he would have been better shutting up and letting Helen Joyce speak more.

ExiledElsie · 14/01/2023 12:09

I could not give less fucks about people thinking I am alt-right adjacent or how much of a shit Peterson is. I am much more interested in ideas and whether they can be defended or not.

I watch stuff and make my own mind up. I even agree with Owen Jones some of the time.

I am just watching a Peterson interview of Temple Grandin. Never heard of her before but she's really interesting.

ExiledElsie · 14/01/2023 12:17

I'd recommend it, interesting right to the end. She's an amazing woman.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 14/01/2023 13:02

Temple Grandin - inventor of the hug machine, and improved abattoir layouts (designed to be less frightening for the cows) - is fascinating. There's quite a bit about her in one of Oliver Sacks' books; I think An Anthropologist on Mars.

ExiledElsie · 14/01/2023 13:05

Peterson's style is very much a dialogue rather than just drawing out the other person's ideas.

Britinme · 14/01/2023 13:16

Temple Grandin wrote a brilliant article recently about how the decline in visually-based and hands-on education was affecting both visual learners and neurodivergent people. I sent it to my husband, who is an architect and definitely one of those visual learners.

HilarysMantelpiece · 14/01/2023 16:20

Britinme · 14/01/2023 13:16

Temple Grandin wrote a brilliant article recently about how the decline in visually-based and hands-on education was affecting both visual learners and neurodivergent people. I sent it to my husband, who is an architect and definitely one of those visual learners.

Did she? You wouldn't point me in the direction of it, if you can remember please?
[I've had a search...was it the NY Times?]

Britinme · 14/01/2023 16:31

@HilarysMantelpiece I sent him a pasted copy of the article rather than the link - could we'll have been the NYT. I hope it's ok to paste it here:

When I was younger, I believed that everybody thought in photo-realistic pictures the same way I did, with images clicking through my mind a little bit like PowerPoint slides or TikTok videos.
I had no idea that most people are more word-centric than I am. For many, words, not pictures, shape thought. That’s probably how our culture got to be so talky: Teachers lecture, religious leaders preach, politicians make speeches and we watch “talking heads” on TV. We call most of these people neurotypical — they develop along predictable lines and communicate, for the most part, verbally.
I was born in the late 1940s just as the diagnosis of autism was being applied to kids like me. I had no language until age 4 and was first diagnosed as brain damaged. Today, many people would say that I’m neurodivergent — a term that encompasses not only autism but also dyslexia, A.D.H.D. and other learning problems. The popularization of the term neurodivergence and society’s growing understanding about the different ways that brains work are unquestionably positive developments for many individuals like me.
Still, many aspects of our society are not set up to allow visual thinkers — which so many of us neurodivergent folks aree_ — to thrive. In fact, many aspects of our society seem set up specifically so we will fail. Schools force students into a one-size-fits-all curriculum. The workplace relies too much on résumés and G.P.A.s to assess candidates’ worth. This must change not only because neurodivergent people, and all visual thinkers, deserve better but also because without a major shift in how we think about how we learn, American innovation will be stifled.
When I was 7 or 8, I spent hours tinkering and experimenting to figure out how to make parachutes, fashioned from old scarves, open more quickly each time I tossed them into the air. This required careful observation to determine how small design changes affected performance. My single-mindedness, verging on obsession, was probably because I was autistic. At the time I loved a book about famous inventors and their inventions. It impressed me that Thomas Edison and the Wright brothers were so single-minded in figuring out how to make a light bulb or an airplane. They spent lots of time obsessively perfecting their inventions. It is likely that some of the inventors in that book also were autistic.
We hear a great deal about the need to fix the infrastructure in this country, but we are too focused on the things that need improving and updating rather than the people who will be able to do the work. For over 25 years, I designed equipment to handle livestock and worked with the highly skilled people who built the equipment. When I look back at all the projects I designed for large companies, I estimate that 20 percent of the skilled welders and drafting technicians were either autistic, dyslexic or had A.D.H.D. I remember two people who had autism and held numerous patents for mechanical devices they invented and sold equipment to many companies. Our visual thinking skills were key to our success.
Today, we want our students to be well-rounded; we should think about making sure that the education we provide is as well. At the same time, I wager that the people who will fix America’s infrastructure have spent hours and hours on one thing, whether it be Legos, violin or chess — hyper-focus is a classic sign of neurodivergent thinking and it’s critical for innovation and invention.
I often get asked what I would do to improve both elementary and high school. The first step would be to put more of an emphasis on hands-on classes such as art, music, sewing, woodworking, cooking, theater, auto mechanics and welding. I would have hated school if the hands-on classes had been removed, as so many have been today. These classes also expose students — especially neurodivergent students — to skills that could become a career. Exposure is key. Too many students are growing up who have never used a tool. They are completely removed from the world of the practical.
Despite my accomplishments, if I were a young person today, I would have difficulty graduating from high school because I could not pass algebra. It was too abstract, with no visual correlations. This is true for many of today’s students who get labeled as bad at math, students who might otherwise pass alternative math courses such as statistics that would also apply to real-life work situations. There is too much emphasis in school on testing and not enough on career outcomes. The fact that I failed the SAT in math prohibited me from getting into veterinary school, but today I am a university professor in animal sciences and I am invited to speak to groups of veterinarians to advise them on their work. The true measure of an education isn’t what grades a student gets today, but where they are 10 years later.

I am often invited to give talks at corporations and government agencies, and the first thing I tell managers is that they need a neurodiverse work force. Complementary skills are the key to successful teams. We need the people who can build our trains and planes and internet, and the people who can make them run. Studies have shown that diverse teams will outperform homogeneous teams. If you’ve ever attended a meeting where nothing gets solved, it may be because there are too many people who think alike.
Today, Taiwan produces the majority of the world’s highest tech silicon chips. Much of the specialized mechanical equipment used for processing meat is made in Holland and Germany. When I visited the Steve Jobs Theater in California, pre-Covid, I discovered that the glass walls were created by an Italian company. The massive carbon fiber roof that looks like a spaceship was imported from Dubai. The reason this equipment is coming from outside the United States can be traced in part to differences in educational systems. In Italy and the Netherlands, for instance, a student at about age 14 decides whether to go the university route or the vocational route. The vocational route is not looked down on or regarded as a lesser form of intelligence. And that’s how it should be everywhere, because the skill sets of visual thinkers are essential to finding real-world solutions to society’s many problems.
Temple Grandin is a professor of animal science at Colorado State University and the author of “Visual Thinking: The Hidden Gifts of People Who Think in Pictures, Patterns and Abstractions.”

Tricyrtis2022 · 14/01/2023 17:09

Fascinating piece, @Britinme

When I was younger, I believed that everybody thought in photo-realistic pictures the same way I did, with images clicking through my mind a little bit like PowerPoint slides or TikTok videos.
I had no idea that most people are more word-centric than I am. For many, words, not pictures, shape thought.

Wow, I had no idea that not everyone thinks in pictures, I thought everyone did.

When I was studying horticulture I ran into real issues with botany and came to realise that it was because the subject was being taught purely by theories. None of the information was going in and what with the exams looming, I found it distressing. Fortunately, the teacher realised my troubles before I did and changed her methods. Rather than just describing plant processes, she started including exercises that illustrated those processes. We were given a list describing plant ailments and told to identify the plant process involved. Suddenly it all made sense and I understood. All I needed was something for my mind to picture. The relief I felt was profound.

Re children not learning practical skills, I read an account some years ago from a primary school teacher who did a class to teach the children how to thread a needle. After being shown what to do, each child had a needle and thread placed before them but some of the children, rather than picking them up and experimenting, pushed the thread towards the needle and were confused when the two didn't 'snap' together as they might have done on a screen.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/01/2023 17:25

The link works for me.

Tricyrtis2022 · 14/01/2023 17:27

Me too.

Britinme · 14/01/2023 17:28

As a words person, it never occurred to me that some people thought in pictures. My husband, an architect, is definitely a visual thinker though. Thinking about it, my first husband was a research chemist and was forever drawing molecular structures, so he may have been that way too.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/01/2023 17:40

I'm a chemist and molecular visualisation is a core part of my work. But it's numbers underneath, and really need to be able to have verbal skills too for understanding papers, designing UI and writing coherent documentation. Maybe this is why apparently quite a lot of people find chemistry difficult, it needs a mental mix.

Britinme · 14/01/2023 17:45

I never got my head around it. I remember when I was supposed to be doing O level Chemistry my boyfriend ( later husband) trying to teach me about valency. He got my mark up from 27% at the end of Y10 to 45% in the mocks but the school still refused to enter me on the grounds it wasn't worth their money. I got on fine in Biology and even did A level, but it really wasn't as chemistry containing in those days. I did a weird A level combo anyway - English, History, Biology and Art.

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