What about trans widows in Scotland now?

[TinselAngel]

From what I can work out, for women in Scotland now, given spousal consent was got rid of there under the radar, when equal marriage was introduced, after 3 months, your husband will be able to become your wife and there's nothing you can do about it.

I was going to write something flippant about wives getting their own GRCs....

... but I'm too sad and angry that this is another bloody reason to hate what's happening

Unreasonable behaviour will still be grounds for divorce, won’t it?

How did they get rid of the spousal consent?

But how would one prove unreasonable behaviour? It's not unreasonable to "change sex".
That's not what I think but what the law says, in Scotland

I'm not sure what your point is?

It was somehow rolled into the equal marriage legislation. We have the spousal exit clause in England and Wales because there are two separate Marriage Acts.
I presume this was fine at the behest of the TRAs.

Presumably no more shits given about transwidows than rape victims etc etc.

I've wondered that too, @princessleah1 .

If a piece of legislation is enacted by the government, surely you can't really argue that someone availing themselves of its provisions is being 'unreasonable'. Because then the court that issues the divorce is saying that legislation is unreasonable and what's the point of having legislation if we can't use it?

I don't know what other ground you could cite in this circumstance. Hopefully you could persuade your once-husband to sleep with someone else and divorce him for adultery.

I go round in circles with this stuff.

Oh.

So when your partner unilaterally traps you in a legal contract other than the terms you consented to enter into? And is quite possibly now starting on the massive financial issues oh so common at this point?

You can now start a several year battle to get out of the marriage.

You know, as opposed to being asked during the transition if you agree to continue the marriage or not, being able to leave if not, and actually being treated as an equal human being?

It is absolutely bloody evil.

Nobody has ever changed sex. It is a legal fiction.

Changing the terms of a heterosexual relationship to a 'lesbian' one without the actual agreement of the female in the relationship is pretty fucking unreasonable.

It looks like applying for an interim GRA is grounds for divorce in Scotland, (I don't know if there's any plans to change this) but given Scottish transitioners can apply to magistrates to get a GRA without spousal consent, it seems highly likely a GRC could be sorted before a divorce, particularly now it's 3/6 months for a GRA not two years.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/family/relationship-problems-s/getting-divorced-s/#irretrievable_breakdown

Will they still be able to claim their half of the marital assets in their deadname?

Thought experiment; a woman murders her spouse and tells the bank and mortgage lender they transitioned without her consent. What happens next?

I just cannot see the family courts in Scotland accepting that transitioning constitutes "unreasonable behaviour".

This is surely at least partially why a specific spousal exit clause was created. Without it, spouses wishing to end a marriage would have needed a judge to declare that transitioning could be legally categorised as unreasonable behaviour. A workaround that avoided opening that can of beans was essential. And it still is.

If transition itself does not constitute unreasonable behaviour, the behaviour that goes with it does. (Speaking as somebody who divorced their transitioning husband for unreasonable behaviour).

Isn't "no fault" divorce legal in Scotland now? I think one or both parties can make a statement that the marriage has irretrievably broken down without apportioning blame. It will still take up to six months which means that a GRC can be obtained before a divorce which is unacceptable.

Can you actually get divorced from a person whose legal identity is different from the person you married? How does that work?

I fear this is a v stupid question; given a marriage certificate (the thing you sign) has a different name on it and so a different signature, is it valid if they get a grc and change everything? Would t a new marriage certificate have to be issued?

No, ‘no fault’ divorce is not part of Scots law. The closest you can get to that is after one year separation with the consent of both parties and after two years if one party does not consent. Scots law is also different than England in so far as the financial settlement and the child arrangements need to be agreed in a minute of separation or by the courts before a divorce will be granted.
It is relatively straightforward to divorce if there are no children and no assets, but otherwise it becomes costly. At the bare minimum, you are paying for the separation agreement to be drawn up, but then if there are any disagreements or negotiations, you are paying for lawyers’ letters, mediation costs or worst case scenario, court costs. You can go to court for a child arrangements order and be given an interim one, which is not sufficient to divorce, and be sent back to mediation (at which point after many hours of further mediation, I gave up trying). The legal system can be abused.

To the second part of your question of whether you can still be married to someone whose legal identity has changed, I would be curious to know. I am willing to bet this has not been considered.

I take that back - it seems to be in the bill

www.parliament.scot/-/media/files/legislation/bills/s6-bills/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill/introduced/bill-as-introduced.pdf

although I need to go so not had time to check what it says and whether this version superseded in any way

Interesting discussion about this on LBC right now.

If that person doesn't exist, are they even still married?

Ameadowwalk

Thanks. CA seem to confirm that applying for a GRC is grounds for divorce but I guess my question was about time frames and documentation. A divorce will take longer than a GRC application which means that by the time a divorce is being processed you will effectively be divorcing a person you were never legally married to. How can you marry John Smith and divorce Jane Smith?

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/family/relationship-problems-s/getting-divorced-s/

Yes, I see your point FOJN.
so basically an interim gender certificate will be issued if the person is married and either they or their partner do not wish the marriage to continue. So John Smith has an interim GRC as Jane Smith, in your example. Therefore all your lawyer’s correspondence and the writ etc would be Jane Smith against say. Annabelle Smith, even though Annabelle married John.
I am not a lawyer but I don’t think a full GRC can be issued until the divorce is complete - but I am reading the bill quickly between other things. What is the practical difference between an interim GRC and a full one?
My point above was really that divorce is not that straightforward in Scotland unless there are no assets and no children - so Annabelle could be stuck in expensive legal proceedings for quite some time against Jane having married John 🤷🏻‍♀️

My shrug indicating that the whole thing is a mess, not that I don’t care, just to be clear. But I think Scots divorce law is a mess without this added issue.