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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Need cheering up

38 replies

CyclingSam · 20/12/2022 01:41

Well, I can't say I know what JK Rowling feels like, but now I know what it's like to be smeared.

I'm active on cycling forums. Most are of course heavily male (I'm a guy, too). A few days ago I decided to put some gender critical ideas in front of them. I knew they'd be skeptical, but I wasn't prepared for the sort of tactics you see in the Bunbury threads. More depressing, I was completely on my own.

It finally ended last night with a lock on the thread and a public shaming, my motives called into question by a moderator.

I'm rather depressed at the moment. Maybe someone can cheer me up by going over to the thread, picking out a comment or two by one of my antagonists, and giving them the FWR critical eye.

The thread in question: forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=154250

OP posts:
Sidaway · 20/12/2022 09:51

I'm not able to read that without registering and logging. Perhaps you could copy and paste some of the conversation here?

Sidaway · 20/12/2022 09:52

*logging in

Thelnebriati · 20/12/2022 10:49

I don't think you need to post GC ideas, just stick to The Equality Act. Sports are a sex affected activity. The law says women are entitled to a fair competition.

RudsyFarmer · 20/12/2022 10:53

And now that’s happened are you more set in your GC opinion or more likely to accept the gender identity rules and guidelines? I’m intrigued.

ZeldaFighter · 20/12/2022 11:04

What were the reasons given for disagreement? Surely male cyclists understand that they are generally stronger and faster than women cyclists - it's in the lap times!

ZeldaFighter · 20/12/2022 11:05

And also thank you for sticking up for women's sports 💙

CyclingSam · 20/12/2022 11:39

Archive links as the thread was removed (which is why you couldn't see it, @Sidaway). Each page has 15 posts. I'm 'Sussex Cyclist'. You'll see three enormous posts of mine and a few shorter ones.

Page 1 - archive.ph/FHjRV
Page 2 - archive.ph/hzI5E
Page 3 - archive.ph/Hc3u0
Page 4 - archive.ph/L1H8K
Page 5 - archive.ph/RDFBW
Page 6 - archive.ph/9FDR5
Page 7 - archive.ph/m9h9F
Page 8 - archive.ph/LuLqa

That's complete except for a few posts which were removed, a screenshot of one of which is here:
freeimage.host/i/biospace.HxsLmXf
Note particularly that last sentence.

I've since been permanently banned.

Hey, at least I got a poem out of it:
www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=5572.msg16247#msg16247
(Scroll up to the top of that thread and vote while you're there, if you haven't already.)

@ZeldaFighter I attempted to tackle far more than sports.

@RudsyFarmer There's no going back.

OP posts:
FOJN · 20/12/2022 18:00

I had a look at page 1 and page 8 this morning.

The conversion seemed generally civil and I think you did a good job of making your points. I wouldn't feel depressed about this. Lots of people will agree with you but won't speak up and some will know very little about the arguments but it looked like you had made logical points and backed them up with plenty of links so those people will go away, read and think about things.

You were very open about your GC view so the arse who questioned your motives was being ridiculous in an attempt to shut the conversation down, it won't have gone unnoticed by the other contributors and those who were just reading. It will leave them wondering why this subject can't be discussed.

There seemed to be a few "be kind", "it's complicated/nuanced" fence sitters who were confused about DSD's, as evidenced by the fact they kept talking about "intersex" as if it proved sex wasn't binary.

It's a shame you've been permanently banned but it looked like a good days work to me.

WarriorN · 20/12/2022 20:32

I bet there were many reading who didn't comment. And I bet they were agreeing with you. But they watched you get banned and didn't want that.

I get it - I have to be incognito. I wish I didn't. So try not to feel down, you did well. And thanks for sticking up for women.

As pp said, EA (emphasise law as I don't think people realise) and bio facts.

CyclingSam · 21/12/2022 08:57

First, I'm afraid I made a hash of my archiving. It appears that when I saved the pages I didn't save them in their completed state of development. This vexes me greatly, as I thought I was being thorough. It seems a lot of stuff is missing.

Links to my main contributions:
– My opener
– Diving right in with Rachel Rooney and JKR
– From Question Time to Billy Bragg going Godwin to Magdalen Berns to Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie to "reframe your trauma"
– TERFs, anonymity, Posie Parker; followed by a rebuttal to the rising tide of TRA.

@FOJN "The conversion seemed generally civil"

It was, for most of the thread, though fairly early on it was obvious to me there were a few people who were going to be a problem. You mentioned someone I privately started calling Intersex Guy, who whilst professing to be interested in debate, simply would not let that go. When I presented him with Robert Winston in all his glory (not as a rebuttal to his intersex nonsense - I used this to address that - he first largely ignored Winston; then when I reminded him, suddenly embraced the good professor as if he had made that discovery himself, showing "the highest regard" for the man's work, only it was such a shame there were problem's with what he'd said… yes, I'm sure the world awaits the debate of Intersex Guy v Robert Winston, FMedSci, FRSA, FRCP, FRCOG, FREng.

Then we had those who were visibly distressed that this subject had been posted on a cycling forum, seeming to forget that I'd specifically posted on a board full of topics about everything but cycling - though of course it does veer topical with Emily Bridges, Veronica Ivy and others.

Through it all we had a gentleman completely unable to come to grips with the very concept of GC, even though I'd explained what it means in my very first post.

My most dogged antagonist was someone I'll call Trying to be Reasonable (As if), or TRA for short. TRA popped up shortly after Intersex Guy, at first perplexed about what I was on about, then after I broke it down for him, merrily gish galloping away.

At one point he and others started pronouning me, though I never brought up pronouns, and had made it clear what sex I am when I talked about my wife's experience of being, you know, a woman. (I am aggrieved at my typo in Sarah Everard's name.)

Towards the end my 'motives' for posting were rapidly achieving dominance in the conversation, as if I hadn't made it clear from the start why I was worried about the sorts of things I was.

The coup de grâce was delivered by the moderator himself.

I think my approach flummoxed them all. I wasn't just dry and factual (although there were plenty of facts and links). I didn't want to be dragged into countless little arguments. Clearly, I talked about things they didn't want to talk about, like empathy, and what makes for respectful debate. I also don't think they liked me poking a bit of fun.

One thing I found particularly striking is they weren't at all keen to discuss women.

In the end, they provided a textbook example of why these debates often go the way they do. Their replies were lousy with rope to hang themselves. (I feel ridiculous saying this, but I don't want anybody to hang themselves.) But after my banning, everything I said is retroactively suspect, and the thread is gone, so people can only refer to their memories.

I'm actually relieved I was banned, as it provided exquisitely appropriate closure.

@WarriorN – It got three or four thousand views in the few days it was up. The forum is part of the website for the nation's premier cycling organisation. I haven't made a count, but there can't have been much more than a dozen, if that, who posted on the thread.

OP posts:
CyclingSam · 21/12/2022 08:57

Too many links maybe?

OP posts:
ValancyRedfern · 21/12/2022 09:23

It sounds like you did a good day's work. There will be lots of people who read the threads and agreed with you, or thought about it for the first time. This is what we all need to do. Be a little bit braver and get people thinking. I'm so sorry you got banned, but you should be proud. You will have made a difference.

Signalbox · 21/12/2022 09:26

These online conversations always go like this. The negative responses and attempts to misrepresent what you have said can feel quite shocking at first. My Husband recently did similar on an online forum he is on and it went mental. He was threatened with being kicked out his organisation, him and another person were compared to being far right (even though the organisation is left). It was a very stressful fortnight.

I’ve not read every link you posted but the topic under discussion is quite broad isn’t it? I was expecting something relating to whether or not males should be permitted to compete in the female categories in cycling. Cycling seems to be a particularly badly affected sport (presumably because it is so male dominated) and if as a sport things continue the way they have been it won’t be long before we start seeing all male podiums. And the less fuss that people make the more quickly this will become normalised.

But well done for putting your head well and truly above the parapet! The feelings you are having will subside and you’ll start to feel glad that you are not just following the crowd. You can be a defender of sex based categories for women cyclists. You can back up the women when they eventually start speaking up. Don’t lose heart. And if you don’t already, follow the likes of Sharron Davies, Mara Yamauchi and Inga Thompson on Twitter and the sports science guy (can’t remember his name atm) for inspiration.

CyclingSam · 21/12/2022 10:33

Thanks MumsnetHQ for letting that post through. Our very ability to discuss this on forums was one of the themes of my thread, beautifully illustrated by its fate. I couldn't have planned it better if I'd tried.

This place has been an oasis of sanity for a few years for me now; I think I even introduced my wife to it (she hasn't been captured by social media nearly to the extent I have).

@Signalbox I've been a fan of Emma Hilton for the science. I frequently post about this on my blog, though the vast majority of the content is links with quoted material and reposts from Mumsnet (see this, for example). I'm very far off the beaten track, so have made efforts over the years to speak out where it can hopefully do some good. I've had posts deleted [exhibits A and B - the latter for even mentioning Mumsnet) and locked before. And this isn't my first banning. It's just the first time it really got to me.

OP posts:
CyclingSam · 21/12/2022 10:37

Just to add, though the banning came as a surprise, I'd actually asked the moderator to delete my account after the thread was locked for the reason it was. I was just too disgusted to continue. I guess he figured it would be more of a lesson to me if he shot me than if I shot myself.

OP posts:
CyclingSam · 21/12/2022 14:06

Aaaaand my wife just pointed out to me that most of the links in my previous longer post don't work. Not sure what happened there, but no worries, here's a duplicate of that post on my site:

www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=6324.0

in the event anyone is interested in following them.

@Signalbox
"He was threatened with being kicked out his organisation, him and another person were compared to being far right (even though the organisation is left). It was a very stressful fortnight."

I'm reminded of the infamous Guardian interview with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, the end of which included an extract from her Reith lecture:

We now live in broad settled ideological tribes. We no longer need to have real discussions because our positions are already assumed, based on our tribal affiliation. Our tribes demand from us a devotion to orthodoxy and they abide not reason, but faith.

OP posts:
CyclingSam · 21/12/2022 21:11

Sorry to be bumping my own thread - if I could edit posts, I would. May I direct your attention to this thread:

forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=154287

I haven't read it, and won't, but my wife has no such compunctions. First she started reading, then she started howling. There was no way around it: she had to tell me a little of what was being said.

Apparently I've been posting about this to get rich. To be completely honest, if there was a way to get rich posting on cycling forums about something I feel passionately about, I would do it in a heartbeat. Alas, there have been no offers.

I wrote something for The Guardian, years ago.

www.theguardian.com/technology/2006/mar/09/news.comment

It was just a Comment Is Free piece (now with a bad link, alas), not topical to this board, but somewhat pertinent as it was my first and only taste of the power of media. After it was printed I was invited to a discussion on a BBC radio show, and was even contacted by an agent who wondered if I might have a book in me. It was heady stuff, but soon enough my 15 seconds were over and I've been plugging away in blessed/cursed obscurity ever since.

So if there are any agents out there reading this, I would be pleased to pitch something to you. There are too many talented women writing about gender ideology for me to be able to break into that market, so I'd like to try my hand at something else: If you've seen The Handmaid's Tale (I'm currently working my way through it), you'll remember Offred and the commander playing Scrabble. I'd like to do a book about winning losing Scrabble strategies - what do you say?

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CyclingSam · 25/12/2022 07:58

Well well.
forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?p=1745641#p1745641

In general, excluding trans folks, refusing to accept their preferred gender, or promoting so called gender critical information is considered bigotry and will not be tolerated on the forum.

Most of the discussion on the thread is reasonable & robust and has therefore been left in place, but a few posts have been removed.

One of the posts that didn't make the cut. I guess they weren't interested in a discussion about what makes for respectful debate... amongst many other things. Should that link (or the entire post I'm quoting) go missing, there's a copy of it on my site.

Resources and information about trans inclusion are available from:

The usual suspects.

Me: The main issue is reconciling the demands of trans activists with the rights of women

Moderator: There is not any reconciliation needed. Women's rights are aligned with trans rights, with the exception of the minority who call themselves gender crititcal. Trans women have been using women's spaces for generations, and will continue to do so.

The arguments in use are the same as those that were used to oppose gay & lesbian rights, women's sufferage, and other issues of rights.

Looks like someone is clinging to #NoDebate.

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Banoffeepie21 · 25/12/2022 08:34

The CyclingUK moderators need to educate themselves, I can’t believe they cited these as credible resources. It tells you all you need to know. Have they been under a stone this past year? I am horrified by that post.

“Resources and information about trans inclusion are available from:
mermaidsuk.org.uk/
www.stonewall.org.uk/“

Thelnebriati · 25/12/2022 12:09

''Sport - when discrimination is allowed in the provision of goods or services''

''If one sex is generally at a disadvantage compared to the other, it’s not unlawful to hold separate competitions for men and women.''
''The Equality Act also says it’s lawful to restrict the participation of transgender people from sporting competitions where physical strength, stamina or physique are important factors in deciding who wins.''

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services1/goods-and-services-what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/what-doesn-t-count-as-unlawful-discrimination-in-goods-and-services/sport-when-discrimination-is-allowed-in-the-provision-of-goods-or-services/

Thelnebriati · 25/12/2022 12:11

Gender Recognition Act;
F1 19Sport
(1)A body responsible for regulating the participation of persons as competitors in an event or events involving a gender-affected sport may, if subsection (2) is satisfied, prohibit or restrict the participation as competitors in the event or events of persons whose gender has become the acquired gender under this Act.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/19

Signalbox · 25/12/2022 13:09

Thelnebriati · 25/12/2022 12:09

''Sport - when discrimination is allowed in the provision of goods or services''

''If one sex is generally at a disadvantage compared to the other, it’s not unlawful to hold separate competitions for men and women.''
''The Equality Act also says it’s lawful to restrict the participation of transgender people from sporting competitions where physical strength, stamina or physique are important factors in deciding who wins.''

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services1/goods-and-services-what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/what-doesn-t-count-as-unlawful-discrimination-in-goods-and-services/sport-when-discrimination-is-allowed-in-the-provision-of-goods-or-services/

What I still can’t work out is if a person says their sex is female and all their identity documents say they are female and you are no longer allowed (apparently) to ask to see birth certificates or GRCs in any case, how in practical terms is a sporting organisation supposed to keep male trans people out of the female categories? The only way I can see this working (outside of genetic testing in elite sports) is being able to rely on transwomen having the integrity to be honest about their male biology and not attempt to access the women’s categories. And we know that increasingly this is an unrealistic expectation because many transwomen believe they are entitled to be in the women’s category. So in practice the single sex exceptions are not currently workable. This is why Labour say they support them because they know they’ve become meaningless.

drspouse · 25/12/2022 13:27

I'm a cyclist and mum to two cyclists. DD has started the Rookie training at our usual club, DS has SEN and doesn't cope with groups so I take him on rides. I'm in a local women's cycling group but a man who identifies as a woman has joined and while I wouldn't care about going to a mixed group if it was mixed, the previous leader was very much a handmaiden and though she left in a huff the bloke leads a lot of rides and is also quite patronising, and the rides are also at really awkward times for a working mum (either during the working day, or weekend mornings when kids' sport happens).

I'm worried my DD may decide to compete but give up if faced with a boy. And even in a social group, the concerns of different social and biological groups are different.

drspouse · 25/12/2022 13:33

@Signalbox you can ask to see a birth certificate or GRC. You just can't disclose its contents if you saw it as part of your job.
So if you are paid to marshal a race and ask if someone has M or F on their original birth certificate you can't go and broadcast the result on Facebook but you can assign them to the right race on that basis.

Signalbox · 25/12/2022 13:52

drspouse · 25/12/2022 13:33

@Signalbox you can ask to see a birth certificate or GRC. You just can't disclose its contents if you saw it as part of your job.
So if you are paid to marshal a race and ask if someone has M or F on their original birth certificate you can't go and broadcast the result on Facebook but you can assign them to the right race on that basis.

A poster on another thread has said it’s unlawful to ask to see it. Do you know where the idea it is unlawful has come from or is it just made up trans activist law?

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