Any sense here?

[JosephFrancis]

Hi,

I've come here because asking in a social media group got me called a transphobe, a terrible parent and generally told to go kill myself and do the world a favour. So... here goes.

My 15 year old autistic daughter, let's call her Alice, has form for putting on and taking off personalities depending on who she's talking to. Masking. Anyway, alice has a friendship group who all decided together that they were either trans or non binary and chose new names for each other. For each other. So, now she wants me to refer to her with she/they pronouns (like always, like they damn well always have been) accept that she's non binary (whatever, literally nothing about her presentation, clothing choices or anything is different) and call her by this name. Which is the name of an animal! For the sake of this post, I'll say it's Falcon. It's not, but it's definitely the same level of wtf.

I have issues with this. Firstly? Her name isn't Falcon. She did not choose the name Falcon.

Secondly, she's not ever expressed anything like this until her friends started deciding this is their group identity.

Thirdly, the fuck am I changing my kids name on any official documents like she wants just because of a fad! They're not emo and scene kids anymore, they're gender confused now.

But now I'm worried that she'll go into school and be all like "oh my mum is oppressing me and they'll start calling her falcon and it's all just gonna be a mess.

Am I a terrible mum for saying she can call herself whatever she likes to her mates, but to her doctors, her school and to me, she is ALICE until I can see evidence that this is anything deeper than a want to fit in with what her mates are doing and the drama they're creating in their own homes with it?

YANBU and really, like EMO and other youth cults, the adults in society should just be letting the kids get on with it and waiting for the phase to pass.

Unfortunately, successful marketing and lobbying, combined with cowardice and a lack of evidence informed practice and critical thinking skills, means institutions now buy into this nonsense.

YANBU and you are not a terrible mum. This movement is terrible and the people facilitating it need to take a good hard look at themselves.

You sound like a perfectly sensible and reasonable mum, OP.

I agree, I can't believe people I would have thought as being rational adults are falling over themselves to validate this! I didn't see them confirming that their deeply emo kids really were terribly tortured souls who were more closely identifying with ghosts and spirits. Ever, actually.
I don't remember a single parent catering to it besides letting their kids dress how they wanted. If one of my mates had insisted their parents call them lucifer or something, I can't imagine the reaction! One of my most emo friends from when I was a teen always wanted to hang out in the graveyard, claimed he could feel souls reaching out to him from under the ground and would tell us that he was going to abandon his identity and try and escape the lost souls searching for him. Had pocketfuls of salt and every so often would get a dramatic look on his face and declare "we need to leave this place." 😂 we absolutely loved the chaos and drama of it all, but never did we try and involve our parents!! Now he's a chemist, well embarrassed by how he used to behave and glad there was no social media for us to document how cringeworthy we were.

Why are kids now being validated and told they can do what they like and lynch anyone pointing out that the emperor has no clothes??

I think I'd avoid confrontation or affirmation. You don't want to alienate her, but neither do you want to cement her 'identity'.

I'd go along with it in a superficial way- occasionally call her Falcon and occasionally call her Alice. It's just a nick name, and gender neutral one at that.

Re her documents, I'd suggest delaying things until 'all' her paperwork is done, then do it together. So suggest that when she's 18, for example, get everything done at the same time, so she doesn't end up with a mosh mosh of names that will cause problems with applying for bank accounts, Uni, driving licence etc.

So avoidance would be my preferred strategy! And keep her busy doing other things, so she gets lots of influences that aren't all about the same gender based stuff. Help at a food bank, get a job, sport, anything really!

I agree OP, and its actually really pernicious. Real people are being really harmed by all this.

Hi OP nope you sound like a totally reasonable mum in a very confusing situation. I know how you feel. The advice I can give such as it is is boundaries and honesty (and always talk in private not in front of her friends)...

1. Support your daughter, as much as you can, in doing and controlling the things which are reasonable for her to control. Clothes, haircut, whether she wants to wear make up or not. What I call 'optional sexist bullshit' make clear that you will always back her over challenging whatever sexiest bullshit is making her feel uncomfortable.

2. but to make sure that she always knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that she can trust you you won't be pretending to believe things which you do not.

3. Sex is real binary and immutable - SOMETIMES it matters, especially for women. And it remains important that as her mum she can talk to you in clear and meaningful ways. Imagine a situation where two non binary people are having a sexual relationship. Which one, if any, is in danger of becoming pregnant, what can be done to prevent it? What are the benefits and drawbacks of different types of contraception? It important that she knows she can talk about this stuff with you and that you know you can talk in meaningful and honest ways about stuff like sex and boundaries with her.

4. But you won't agree to anything harmful so she didn't bother pestering and you promise to do your best not to embarrass her in front of her friends as long as she understands that declaring her new identity does not give her any excuse whatsoever to behave like a brat. So if she's out of line you'll tell her she's out of line but you'll do so in private wherever possible.

Hugs/ good luck.

I agree with a PP, occasionally call her Falcon, occasional "forget" and call her Alice - wait for it to blow over. Tell her she can change all her documents when she's 18. And yes, see if you can spark or support other interests - could she volunteer or do something practical like the Duke of Edinburgh?

That's a great nuanced post that nails it howdoesatoastermaketoast.
Supporting our children and letting them try out ideas and develop independence is so hard in the face of this dangerous ideology and some of the toxic role models / self identified experts that children are confronted with.

Just to add I'd advise to listen more than you talk and ask lots of questions. Tell her that you are interested in how she feels and you do accept that the feelings are real even where you don't necessarily agree with her conclusions about what those feelings mean.

@MrsOvertonsWindow thanks

Also I'd add that the whole sexist toxicity online thing means it makes perfect sense to want a neutral name and avatar to me.

One of the freelancers at a mates work told everyone that "they" now wished to be referred to as "General Raven", which my mate knew was their LARPING name.

👀

You are a wonderful Mum 💐.
Could you just call her some term of endearment (dear, darling) instead of using her actual name. Instead of shouting her name up the stairs, walk up and address her directly. There is very little actual need to constantly use people's first names.

Absolutely- children's instincts to avoid a sexualised / sexist adulthood is logical. Tragically if they were as aware of the porn soaked nature of so many of the adults pushing this stuff (as evidenced by the recent Mermaids scandals) they'd be instinctively repelled and maybe more able to protect themselves. No debate and the unthinking "be kind" demands of so many adults has allowed the grim reality to be hidden.

@MrsOvertonsWindow you're not wrong

OP I would offer that you don't need to be too afraid to use her 'hippy name' / nickname (as I'd suggest you call it in private) especially around / to friends. I'd agree to this IF it's really important to her as a nickname whilst insisting 'proper' name stays for doctors school exam certificates national insurance number passport and other 'boring stuff'.

So my oldest (14) and a lot of friends is non binary - we've taken an attitude I call 'supportively sceptical', we use their pronouns and name (admittedly this was their own choice) and they never expected us to make any legal changes to it. We've said if they want to keep that name when they're old enough to do the paperwork, they can change it legally themselves - luckily it's not very WTF and actually quite nice. Whether or not they keep the gender identity, I consider it quite possible they will keep the new name.

We get on, they respect my views (and mostly DHs), so we have had conversations (and I should stress always in a respectful, non-confrontation way) where I've explained that if one doesn't like gender stereotypes, I feel it makes a stronger statement to hold your identity as male or female and show you can be however you want; when they've said they 'don't feel any gender', we've said that's normal, no one really 'feels' a gender and so on. This is not a campaign to 'stop them being NB', but I want to them to land on whatever they feel is right for them for the right reasons.

They're a good kid and I suspect had we asked them to desist, they would have to avoid 'awkwardness', and either carried on with their friends and developed a separate world from us that we'd be excluded from, and one way or another, it's likely they'd choose to be less open with us and would feel we didn't listen to them. So being supportive but trying to keep their mind open seemed to best route.

As it happens, I think a lot will unravel in the next few years as peers actually develop sexual attraction and will find they want to keep their gender identities more straightforward! The first friend to come out as NB (whose parents take a similar stance to us) has recently started to use their original name again after two years and when DH last saw them and asked about pronouns, they said 'Ah, whatever' which I take to mean 'I'm going to let everyone drift towards my original pronouns', because none of them are going to admit to 'defaulting', but I have a suspicion many will passively let their gender ID drift back when they realise it's not really them.

You sound like a lovely mum.

I've read and listened to lots of desister and detrans stories and those of their parents and what comes up again and again is that these kids need something else to focus on.

Get her using her body so she can see how perfect and amazing it is, get her out into the real world and enjoying nature. Can you do an exercise class together, go to the gym or wrap up warm and go for walks in the country or a nice big park?

Is she old enough get a Saturday job or do some volunteering?

I just could not take this seriously and I really dislike that I now live in a society where I would be expected to

I think I’m on your Facebook group! I saw your post I think yesterday and the replies I saw were all about validating it, I thought I can’t be bothered with the arguments (sorry) and carried on scrolling.
i have a daughter with autism who is incredibly vulnerable to all this stuff, so far we have avoided it but it is definitely on my radar.
I feel for you as it’s always one challenge after another…. You think you are winning and making progress then something else pops up..

In the context you are probably best to smile vaguely and call her "sweetheart" "love" "darling" "sausage" or whatever random pet names you might have always used unconnected to her given name.

It's probably not worth an all put battle with an autistic 15 year old at this stage over the name. Obviously don't change it on official documents, just be infuriatingly accepting in a completely vague, non committal way.

Obviously the biggest issue is being sure she's not being groomed by adults on social media platforms or by private message and is safe from anyone predatory or with an agenda who isn't a 15 year old in her class!

As far as the name change goes, I've got another reason you could use to delay it. I know more than one young trans person who has changed their name more than once. Perhaps you could put it to your daughter that she "try it out and see if it fits" before doing anything permanent.

It's one of those "Yes, dear," moments. Or rather, weeks or months, however long it takes for her to work through it.

One of mine did almost exactly the same at that age. She has since been put on the ASD assessment pathway (severely delayed by Covid). She was very aware of my sex matters perspective, so was shaking with fear when she 'came out' to us. My first reply was "I love you, we love you, and nothing about this changes that." I said that I would try and use the name she had chosen (I did not say anything about it being 'her new name'), but that she would have to forgive me when I slipped up - as I would do, because she had been [name] in my heart all her life. I calmly and gently refused to change the pronouns I use to describe my perception of the world around me. Then dh and I reiterated our love and support for dd.

Since then, I have rarely referred to dd by sexed descriptors in her presence. So "Goodnight, gorgeous child", rather than "Goodnight, gorgeous girl", for example. I occasionally used her chosen name, but allowed myself to slip up frequently, and used pet names far more often than given names. I use pet names such as Sweetheart for my boys and for my girls, so it's gender-neutral.

And so life goes on. We still have cuddles, help each other to choose clothes, talk about things that matter to us - except one thing.

I see it as keeping my daughter safe until she has worked through this cultish influence. Ironically, dd is very aware of the biological root of the oppression of females, of the physical reasons for sports to be sex-segregated, of the feminine socialisation that causes girls to be quiet in a class with boys (and has complained to her HoY about the girls her class being seated with the most disruptive boys between them), and yet she is still TWAW. The cognitive dissonance must be incredibly distressing.

You've had excellent advice above op. I hope you're able to navigate through this. Are other parents concerned?

I teach in as school in which the majority of pupils are autistic. We have some who insist on other names or being a cat. We are quite firm that they reserve those ideas for play time/ down time. And then sometimes what is or isn't allowed. Down time is often woven into the school day in order to directly teach appropriate social interaction.

One boy would mimic how cats come and rub against you; it was exceptionally inappropriate in y6 and the same height as most of us.

I bet you are. All from the same few people, one of whom personally messaged me telling me I was scum and that I should kill myself because the world would do better without people like me in it!

I remember one year every girl in my class decided to change her name, I guess we were about 13.

OP, I would just say, you can use whatever nickname you like with your friends, but you will always be Alice to me - you can't erase your history. And if you want to change your name etc legally, you can make that decision when you are the legal age to do so.

I'd probably ignore the n/b stuff for now.