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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

British Cycling Transgender focus groups

13 replies

CoffeeBoy · 15/12/2022 09:11

I have a race license and have therefore being emailed about this. They are running focus groups which are open to female race licence holders (my emphasis not theirs)

ive registered to attend. My first point might be how ironic it is that they realise that they want females viewpoints but don’t seem to know what a female is. I suspect they’ll let biological men into the focus group if they say they’re a woman. 🤷🏻‍♀️

can anyone signpost me to any decent evidence about males having a physical advantage in sport?

OP posts:
JacquelinePot · 15/12/2022 09:16

This really boils my piss. They are the ones wanting to change the status quo, THEY should be providing evidence to YOU to support the change. Oh wait, they can't because there isn't any!

Drs Emma Hilton and Colin Wright are great on this. Wasn't it Ross Tucker for Engalnd Rugby who did that report a while back?

skilpadde · 15/12/2022 09:26

The Hilton and Lundberg paper might be useful for you.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

CoffeeBoy · 15/12/2022 10:26

Thanks, will get reading

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/12/2022 11:48

Here you are: Ross Tucker's a sports scientist and fully on board with the problems with men in women's sport. His pinned tweet is a useful debunk of all the fantasies about men becoming women if they reduce testosterone levels:

twitter.com/Scienceofsport

nauticant · 15/12/2022 12:03

Whatever you put up you'll get quibbling but here's something straightforward that provides clear examples of what the differences mean in practice:

boysvswomen.com/

Helleofabore · 15/12/2022 12:06

idrottsforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/devineetal221129.pdf

"When Ideology Trumps Science: A response to the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport’s Review on Transwomen Athletes in the Female Category"

Cathy Devine, Emma Hilton, Leslie Howe, Miroslav Imbrišević, Tommy Lundberg, Jon Pike

Independent Scholar; University of Manchester; University of Saskatchewan; Open University (UK); Karolinska Institutet

29 November 2022

Helleofabore · 15/12/2022 12:07

This is an interesting discussion and has Dr Handelmann as a speaker too.

Helleofabore · 15/12/2022 12:08

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2022/09/01/bjsports-2021-105400.info

New study from Brazil

Cardiopulmonary capacity and muscle strength in transgender women on long-term gender-affirming hormone therapy: a cross-sectional study

Leonardo Azevedo Mobilia Alvares, Marcelo Rodrigues Santos, Francis Ribeiro Souza, Lívia Marcela Santos, Berenice Bilharinho de Mendonça, Elaine Maria Frade Costa, Maria Janieire Nazaré Nunes Alves, Sorahia Domenice

Conclusion
In this small cohort of non-athlete TW, who were previously exposed to male pubertal development and underwent long-term oestrogen therapy, we identified higher grip strength and VO2 peak levels than in non-athlete CW, but these same parameters were lower compared with non-athlete CM.

These findings add new insights to the sparse information available on a highly controversial topic about the participation of TW in physical activities. Future studies involving transgender athletes that account for and quantify variable exposure times to pubertal development and assess muscle cell metabolism are needed to elucidate the effects of long-term GAHT on TW sports performance.

Helleofabore · 15/12/2022 12:09

From Ross Tucker on this study above:

Over a decade (14.4 yrs average) of T-suppression, and TW have VO2max 20% higher, grip strength 19% higher & skeletal mass 40% than women. More evidence that male biology persists long after T is removed. Another piece of the same puzzle, albeit from a cross-sectional study.

The cross-sectional bit is important - the study hasn't (like over a dozen others) tracked people from Day zero onwards, so the differences are a 'snapshot' rather than a 'movie', if that makes sense? Means you don't know how those TW began, 14.4 yrs earlier, but the finding of quite large differences compared to women (20% or more) is striking, because a) they either began as typically representative of males, and lost some, but retained significant advantages vs women, or b) they began well below men, and lost hardly any advantages. In either case, the end point, over a decade later, is biological differences compared to women that will create performance implications. Of interest, the mass retention and VO2max advantage mean that relative VO2max (ml/kg/min) ends up similar, which means in some sports (weight-determined) the performance implication may differ - sometimes very large, sometimes smaller, as in some categories within endurance sports.

But zero? Unlikely, because cardio function, FFM & strength are greater. Important paper, showing striking biological 'persistence' 14 yrs on.
Two further thoughts on the study. First, the TW vs women differences in muscle mass and strength remain large (20%) after more than a decade of T suppression. One year vs ten, biology "persists". Second, add training to the mix and TW and women would obviously get stronger.

You could TRY to argue that women would get stronger relatively more than TW (you'd have a job on your hands to explain why this would be, but anyway). More likely is that the differences - TW vs women - would persist or even increase with the addition of training. What this study confirms is that non-trained TW retain biological differences with performance implications after 14 years of T suppression. You'd have to believe that W could make up these gaps with training to believe in fairness in sport. That is, trained W = non-trained TW = fair!

Helleofabore · 15/12/2022 12:10

Sorry... All that was from Ross Tucker. Formatting fail.

Helleofabore · 15/12/2022 12:15

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329

Timothy A Roberts, Joshua Smalley, Dale Ahrendt

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators

Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

It is interesting reading as it also leaves the suggestion that even after 3 years advantage still exists.

And Sean Ingle’s take on it.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Helleofabore · 15/12/2022 12:17

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

And Harper's study that reached similar conclusions to Hilton and Lundberg.

Sorry for spamming, but these are the links that I have stored in Break it down for me thread.

CoffeeBoy · 15/12/2022 12:18

Thanks for all the links, really appreciate it.

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