Is this correct? Scotland and GRC

[talkingdeadscot]

I've been thinking a lot about the long term consequences of granting a GRC with no checks etc. Apologies if this has been asked before..... If a man gets a GRC which for all intents and purposes changes their sex legally to female, does that mean for all purposes? For example, if I request female only care does that exclude them? Does this 'check' rely on them being honest about their 'transition'? If they physically still looks like a man but insists they're a woman and their official documentation now says they're a woman then is there any challenge to that? I suppose I'm asking if the exemption in the EA still stands and how will that be enforced (if at all)? Thanks

The SNP has been pushing for men with a GRC to be considered a woman for all purposes, no exceptions. Looks like they are getting their way. Breaking news: www.thenational.scot/news/23188087.women-scotland-lose-legal-case-definition-woman/

That's terrifying. What the hell is going on? I'd leave Scotland if I thought anywhere else would be any better.

Yep, looks like there will be no way to guarantee female anything, and the words previously used to describe our sex class will be meaningless too.

Wondering how that will work with elite sports where international governing bodies do require female only teams. But if Scottish women are expected to play eg rugby with trans-identified men at lower levels, I don’t suppose there will be many women left to play at elite levels anyway.

Makes me sick. But what upsets me more is the number of women happily giving up all their rights to appease the few and denying that there will be any repercussions from this.

My daughter's one.

Such a good day yesterday but really been brought back to earth today.

I'm really fucking angry about this. All that shite from my MSP's about single sex spaces not being affected by self id. It was just lies.

I genuinely can't believe what my country has become.

That's the only good thing to come out of this. It shows the govts position as a pack of lies. Hopefully more people will become aware. I will admit to fearing the juggernaut can't be stopped though. Too much money involved.

A JUDGE has ruled that transgender women with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) can legally be defined as women when it comes to legislation that aims to ensure gender balance on public boards. (from the article linked above)

Is this going to be part of the problem that under the proposed change in Scotland you can get a GRC based on self declaration?

For example, if I request female only care does that exclude them? Does this 'check' rely on them being honest about their 'transition'? If they physically still looks like a man but insists they're a woman and their official documentation now says they're a woman then is there any challenge to that?

I don't know. We need legal challenges. If this was within the NHS, some trusts appear to say that if a woman questions a male person's claim to be a different gender, then that questioning woman should be 'removed'.

I'm really confused by this.

How do you reconcile:

1. The term "female sex" can include males, by law: “The meaning of sex for the purposes of the 2010 Act, 'sex' is not limited to biological or birth sex, but includes those in possession of a GRC obtained in accordance with the 2004 Act stating their acquired gender, and thus their sex."

with

2. Spaces can be preserved for members of the "female sex" in the way they were before this ruling: “It is important to add that this ruling does not affect the exceptions in the Equality Act which mean that single-sex services can exclude trans people or treat them less favourably where it is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim, although services are not required to do so. They can do that whether or not the trans person has a GRC. In short, the ruling confirms the status quo and the rights of women and trans people under it.”

These two statements are mutually exclusive, surely?

Can anyone explain?

Aha - found the main thread, and CharleyParley answers this on p15. I wouldn't have believed this explanation if I hadn't seen by now what a mess our law and politics can be - remarkable!

The trouble is there is a big gap between what the law actually is and how its interpreted and used.

Currently we have males in jobs that were reserved for women and nobody seems to care.

Not doubting this, but do you have hard examples for when we start to spread the word wider.

Succintly put. It really is remarkable.

You'd think that this would be enough for anyone with an ounce of empathy. But x+1 may well apply here...

www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19509343.outcry-plan-educate-bigoted-rape-survivors-trans-rights/

Look up Mridul Wadhwa and Edinburgh Rape Crisis...

And I repeat, it's just one example, but it should be enough: 1) It shows the precedent & 2) It shows the associated damage to women's rights and wellbeing. Given more is clearly needed, I despair.

Thanks, I shall go and work my way through it.

A point raised by someone else on the other thread: if biological sex and GRC assigned gender in accordance with the 2004 GRAct are the same in law, doesn't it follow that Scottish Self ID and biological sex are NOT the same in law because Scottish self ID is not a GRC in accordance with the 2004 Act.

I used to think I had a reasonable grasp of the law in this area but I can’t wrap my head around this judgment. How are service providers supposed to know where they stand. No wonder everything is going unisex.

OMFG. I’d never read these quotes in full before.

Why has this person not been sacked and sent on their. Their sentiments are vicious and vindictive.

I came across this today and it was like finding a well of cool clear water in its cogency and sanity!

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Since I posted much earlier in this thread not only has an SNP Minister said on Radio 4 PM that the new Scottish GRA does NOT changed the right to single sex exemption as provided for under the UK wide EA, but a constitutional lawyer has also said this.

I think the problem is that even those who do implement this exemption not really understand they can provide services based exclusively on biological sex, but that also, particularly in Scotland some groups have gone out of their way to say they are acting under the Single Sex exemption and can therefore include trans women. And attempts to report them for misadvertising came to nothing as no one in the Charity Sector or elsewhere cared about it (women rights).

Not underestimating the impact of the new Scotland GRA (I hope in years to come detransitioners sue the SNP) we are faced with a general apathy towards women's rights. I suspect Tory interest in this is only as deep as the prospect of winning votes in the next election, ie not out of a genuine committment to women's sex based rights.

Huh. My last post has been deleted and I really can't remember it being particularly controversial. I'm guessing it was too accurate for the misogynistic monitors.