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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour would add "legal but harmful" BACK into the online bill

80 replies

ResisterRex · 04/12/2022 10:43

Of course they would. FFS

order-order.com/2022/12/04/phillipson-labour-would-restore-legal-but-harmful-clause-for-online-content/

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 06/12/2022 08:02

In tech??!! And what is mainstream now due to the Internet??!
Whatever.

pinchpoint · 06/12/2022 08:33

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2022 13:49

Ultimately the wording of the bill is too broad. It needs to be very specific in what's not OK, and mindful of allowing whistle lowing and public concerns to be voiced.

It also needs to understand the implications of criminalisation and who this affects and whether its in the public interest.

Its well summed up in the phrase: 'one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist' - who makes that decision?

Sonia Sodha was on politics live last week, talking about this. She suggested that rather than it being about individuals it's should be more about social media giants and algorithms - and how these direct and heighten echo Chambers and thats where the criminality of 'lawful harms' should be directed.

The debate was interesting in that it pointed out that this legislation runs the risk of needing vast censorship monitoring - which only the social media giants could manage. Thus driving smaller social media outfits out of business (hello mn) and its the algorithms which are driving a lot of this to begin with.

You have to ask a question here. The case that this has sprung from has been the suicide of a teenage girl. She didn't wake up one morning and decide to kill herself. It was a process of almost channelling her through a maze of gates to sources that amplified the same message. You don't start in that place - you go through a journey through online referrals to get to that. That for me is what you need to consider more. How do you counter that process and set up barriers, not how do you censor content outright (cos you'll never achieve that).

And this actually also sits next to the big question of why teens are searching online in the first place? There's an absence of counter voices and services both online and in the real world to catch them before they get to that point.

Why are we getting massive waves of online harms at a time where mental health provision and access to support in the real world is near impossible. Especially within a short time frame. The two are not unconnected.

The online harms bill is a cheap way to look like you are solving a problem, when the problem really is that people needing professional support rather than quackery and exploitation and online cultish echochambers, simply can't get it promptly.

There needs to be easy access alternatives available so teens aren't driven to seek out something else.

If it were a physical illness and the solution was a simple drug through the NHS we'd understand why restricting access to the drug (evidence based solution) was the problem. Because its less tangible and understood we say 'ban people talking about harming themselves'.

Its nonsense. People will still seek it out, because the key factors here are lack of access and growing desparation fuelled by people alienated and outside mainstream thinking (because of the self selecting and computer generated streaming of people into echochambers)

I hear you @RedToothBrush Interesting points you raise about the Bill being a sticking plaster for a systemic problem. I agree that criminal sanctions should pertain to corporations. We already have laws against child exploitation.

Perhaps broadband & device access needs to be rationed, or come with a health warning, and an expectation that children are not let loose into these online worlds? It's arguably a form of neglect to turn your kid loose there.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2022 10:04

It's arguably a form of neglect to turn your kid loose there

I don't disagree tbh but I also wonder how escapable it is too. I worry because we are yet to get to an age where DS wants to be part of this. Its how kids rebel - they don't need alcohol in the same way we did as kids.

What we have seen is 13 or 14 year olds who have been involved in gaming / online communities and their parents are oblivious to some of the stuff their kid is seeing. Over the years we've met kids and parents at meet ups and thats quite hard as they've been slightly older than us and you can't just say 'do you understand what's going on' though DH has approached them and delicately warned them where he can on occasion. Its awkward as these kids are often prone to over sharing and being more trusting than they should. And if you are over protective as a third party adult, if you aren't careful you run the risk of others accusing you of being creepy. These were really nice good kids, with parents who are lovely and trusting and really would look after their kids in any other situation you can think of. I certainly wouldn't categorise them as neglectful in a stereotypical way. It's more a huge naivety.

The other thing we've noticed is how parents who might think they are worldly wise and down with the kids still have no concept of what's online either. There's all these ultra sexualised euphemisms that that are banded about that are often generational. Think about the urban dictionary and how people of a certain age just won't get a lot of the terms. There is a whole language for online culture that doesn't exist in the same way as real life (even MN has its own user abbreviations that you have to be 'on the inside' for long enough to understand what they mean).

Its a whole world beyond the imagination and experience of those who haven't participated in it. Its like 24/7 cards against humanity as the normal default at times.

One of the major reasons I ended up gravitating to mn was precisely because everywhere else was so full on, sexualised and frankly infantile even when dealing with men and women in their 30s. And omg The Drama! There were consistently massive fall outs and relationship bust ups which would give any soap opera a run for its money. The intensity of it doesn't match real life.

MN by comparison is tame as fuck (despite the nest of vipers thing and AIBU).

I dunno. Like I say DH and I find that we feel out of step with our peers because of it. We have a lot in common with older gen xers and much younger millennials or even gen zers. Some of our best friends have kids who are now in their late teens and early twenties and we can communicate with them on a completely different level talking about gaming and online communities which goes right over their parents heads. It's weird.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2022 14:27

Article I've spied today

www.ft.com/content/5b0b84c1-3edf-4286-9b02-b35835a90bb1
French Pornhub case shows how hard it is to regulate the internet
The challenge over privacy demonstrates that implementing new safety laws is not always straightforward

In October, a French court decided that a constitutional challenge raised by the controversial website Pornhub may proceed against a law which allows the blocking of porn sites that fail to prevent access by children. In 2020 the government amended the criminal code to specify that the use of age declaration tools (“click here if you are over 18”) will not be sufficient. New legislation empowered France’s online content regulator, Arcom, to seek blocking orders against websites that don’t implement robust age gating.

But at present there is no age verification technology that French authorities consider both effective and privacy preserving. Arcom is supposed to publish guidelines on compliant tools, but hasn’t. However, it served enforcement notices last year against five free-to-view porn sites, including Pornhub, giving them 15 days to replace their age model, or risk being blocked. The websites’ lawyers claim that attempts to engage in discussion were ignored. The sites took no action and so blocking proceedings were initiated.

Like it or not, it is understandable that faced with the choice of adopting ineffective age verification tools that might compromise user privacy, or being blocked, Pornhub’s owner MG Freesites opted to challenge the law. The court agreed that there was a question to be tried and the challenge is proceeding. And so, more than two years after the French law was toughened, a pressing social problem persists.

The article them talks about the conflict between privacy and Internet surveillance concerns, whether the tech is available and effective and anti abuse campaigners which doesn't show clear signs of resolution.

This is really the nub of it for me. I don't know that you can regulate the internet in the way campaigners would wish. Multiple accounts are always ahead of the game unless you use draconian measures which are vulnerable to hacking and discourage participation as a result

MN is the test case for this in many ways - women don't want to use their personal details to identify an account that might ultimately be traceable back to them. If faced with a choice of ID linked participantion or self exclusion out of fear of reprisals, a certain significant % would disengage. Its why MNHQ itself has always taken a fairly fuzzy approach on this one and stuck up for the value of anonymity as being powerful in good ways not just harmful ways.

I genuinely don't know what the solution is, but I do have doubts over regulation and feel the more narrow it is, the more likely it will actually work in practice rather than be gamed.

DaSilvaP · 06/12/2022 14:55

MargaritaPie · 04/12/2022 17:09

Do you honestly think people with gender-critical views living in the UK are "being silenced"?

JK Rowling has just short of 14M followers and every opinion she has is published by the daily mail for one example.

When Kathleen Stock left her role in the college, she spent over a month on TV/newspapers/radio etc daily as a platform for her views as another example.

Do you honestly think that there is "freedom" when the ONLY people that can voice their opinion are people with enough "fuck-you money" to ignore the baying mob whose "reasoned arguments" boil down to only threats and insults?

While the vast majority is reduced to silence by means of economic coercion?

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