Labour's silencing of women

[dancingqueen123]

thecritic.co.uk/the-labour-party-and-gender-critical-women/

So. Fucking. Depressing.

Are you saying that we, women, should NOT speak up about his because we may not have spoken up about something else?

No, that's the absolute opposite of what I'm saying. I'm actually saying that not only should you be speaking up for this if you believe in it, but you should be speaking up to allow opinions on other matters to be spoken about too. The reason why the women who hold these views have been shut down is becaus the party have been allowed to shut other views down in the past. I guess you reap what you sow.

It does sound as though you are saying that we, as women, should be more ware of anything that may not directly affect us, or we are being biased, unfair to someone, something.

I already apologised for putting my view of free speech down on the feminism board. Maybe it's inappropriate here. But yes, not we as women, but we as people (maybe this is why the feminism board was the wrong place) should be aware that by allowing oppression of other people's opinions, we one day might find our own opinion to be suppressed. Which is not to say at all that you have to agree with someone else's opinion, but banning speech and cancelling people often results in an unexpected kicker further down the road.

Maye I'm challenging your previously held views too.

No it was the right place. I agree.

Did you mean it was not the right place? I can accept that.

No. Quite the opposite. This is absolutely the trite place, see my previous post.

Regardless of what some in other arenas say of us, we do like a debate, we are usually polite, well informed and quite happy to bat an idea back and forth forever!

Leap in...

My point is that if party members are being silenced over this, it's inevitable they've been silenced over other ideas. But it's become acceptable to do that by the main body of party members so that everyone agrees and is on message.

Which is why I found my way to this debate not through feminist issues at first but because of free speech issues. And why I've been criticising things like politicians having eggs or milkshakes thrown at them and that being justified as well deserved protest, or MPs calling members of other parties "scum" or saying they will never ever ever work with them on anything and so on.

And yes, there are a number of issues where silencing tactics like the ones we know too well are employed, including on subjects where I hold the same views as those who do the silencing.

I still don't agree with it.

Like the case with the pug for instance or banning that US preacher.

There's even a subject I don't ever mention as one where underhand tactics have been used for years to silence dissent, because I cannot be bothered with the fallout.

I hold with what Rosa Luxemburg once wrote "freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter". There can be no real freedom if all you are allowed to express is the acceptable opinion. There are many ways to justify silencing dissenters, and we've seen many of those in recent years, because of Covid, for instance, or Brexit.

I grew up in a totalitarian state without freedom of speech and that's why I will defend even those whose opinions I find entirely objectionable to be able to exercise that freedom.

And that requires tolerance.

Tolerance is not acceptance. But the argument now is often warped so that intolerance is seen as necessary lest we be accused of accepting unacceptable views.

So yes, MarshaMelrose, you are right, this tactic to suppress dissent started on other issues and many of us are only noticing it now, because we find ourselves, often for the first time, on the dissenting side on this one.

Scuse me whilst I try and approach all of that!

but you should be speaking up to allow opinions on other matters to be spoken about too why? Some of us are, as I said, single issue feminists, activists, political animals. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't have to defend everything if I don't want to. Why should I?

I guess you reap what you sow. Women are to blame for this? Because women didn't speak up and defend everything else that has come up? No!!

I already apologised for putting my view of free speech down on the feminism board. Don't do that. It smacks of passive aggressive bullshit. Say what you mean and have the brass neck to stand by it, to discuss it, to hear things you don't agree with etc. But don't do that!

but banning speech and cancelling people Who has done that? What else has happened that we, women or not, have ignored? Or is this all hypothetical?

Maye I'm challenging your previously held views too.

Maybe. But I'd need to know specifically what it was I had ignored that means that this current assault on women's rights is my own fault.

Because it still sounds as though you are saying that women/people did or did not do something that makes all of this inevitable and something we should just shut up about - as it is our own fault!

My point is that if party members are being silenced over this, it's inevitable they've been silenced over other ideas.

You may be right. This issue has made me aware of the problem. I've always understood that there is a party line people might be encouraged or pressured to agree with but the bullying on this issue has been intense and overt.

This board is absolutely the right place to discuss silencing and bullying. I and many other posters are concerned about free speech and democracy as well as women's rights and safeguarding.

Scuse me whilst I try and approach all of that!

but you should be speaking up to allow opinions on other matters to be spoken about too why? Some of us are, as I said, single issue feminists, activists, political animals. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't have to defend everything if I don't want to. Why should I?

Well, of course, you dont have to do anything. You certainly don't have to agree with or defend another's opinion. But by supporting free speech in all areas, you make room for free speech over your single issues. If you ignore free speech being closed down over some issues, when you come to speak about the one issue you care about, you might find that space has been removed too.

I guess you reap what you sow. Women are to blame for this? Because women didn't speak up and defend everything else that has come up? No!!

I mean to be fair, I was clear that I was talking about people not just women.
"But yes, not we as women, but we as people"
That's why I apologised about putting it on the feminism board. But yes, people are to blame for free speech being closed down. Who else is to blame?

I already apologised for putting my view of free speech down on the feminism board. Don't do that. It smacks of passive aggressive bullshit. Say what you mean and have the brass neck to stand by it, to discuss it, to hear things you don't agree with etc. But don't do that!

I wasn't being passive aggressive. I rwadthe feminism board but don't post ofte. And I see that iccasinly, threads get subverted and, understandably, posters get annoyed. I felt my ist was linked to the opening post but i apologised excuse I'm aware that eoplecmight think it inappropriate because my post was more eneral than just women based.
Ive said aud what I mean. I 100% stand behind it. But it might not be the right place to post it. That's all.

but banning speech and cancelling people Who has done that? What else has happened that we, women or not, have ignored? Or is this all hypothetical?

I think you'll find it happens a lot. You only gave to look at universities cancelling speakers to see it. And I don't mean those people who break the law under the guise of free speech. That's a totally different matter.

Maybe. But I'd need to know specifically what it was I had ignored that means that this current assault on women's rights is my own fault.

Because it still sounds as though you are saying that women/people did or did not do something that makes all of this inevitable and something we should just shut up about - as it is our own fault!

Yes, it's about people, not women. Of course its inevitable that if we stand back and allow free speech to be closed down, one day our free speech will be taken away. As a country we've allowed this to happen because actually we don't like a person or what a person is saying, so it was easy to shrug our shoulders. But once society discovers it's OK to close down some people, it becomes ever easier to close down more. And gradually, we get to the point of only allowing ourselves to hear people who are saying the same as us. And then what happens if one day we don't agree with what the other people are saying? Then we get shut down too.

This is getting very circular 🙂

I'll just say that whilst I understand the gist of what you are saying I simy, vehemently disagree that anyone needs to be politically aware of anything other than that which directly affects them. This is how many people approach many issues and make great political and social changes - individuals being passionate about a single issue.

It really isn't a matter of 'what goes around comes around' or political karma.

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist
I simy, vehemently disagree that anyone needs to be politically aware of anything other than that which directly affects them.

Ok, but I think in reality most of us do consider others, even if their problems are not ours. I'm pretty financially stable in my own house. But I do consider those people living in horrendous conditions of damp, mould and insect infestations. No-one should live like that. I do consider homeless people who've fallen on hard times and have no personal security.
So although I have no personal investment in these issues, I would speak out about them. And, of course, no one is closing down discussion of these problems. Yet. 😉

Lets just agree to disagree. 🙂

Perfectly put.

Excellent post, Charlie. Agree completely.

The thing is feminism doesn't stand alone. It's very much dependent on certain ideas being help by most people and being robustly defended in public institutions.

For example the idea that all human beings are equal in dignity and have certain rights and capacities, is an idea that exists beyond feminism.

That does not mean a feminist needs, necessarily, to go out working against, say, racism, in order to defend that point. But if that idea is being seriously undermined at a basic level, anyone who depends on that idea needs to be concerned and may well see it as an urgent issue.

Free speech is like that. If it goes, we have lost the basis of western democracy, and what that means for women could be very significant, in fact an existential threat.

I started this thread but maybe this is better placed here:

Labour would add "legal but harmful" BACK into the online bill www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4691091-labour-would-add-legal-but-harmful-back-into-the-online-bill

Frankly, what and who else would they silence?

If you have a Labour MP and haven't already, please, please make an appointment to go and see them. Face to face with a constituent is IMO the highest impact interaction you can have. Mine was accompanied by a very righteous young man who started trying to talk over me, but she did say she was surprised by some of the (IMO very basic) facts I mentioned, like numbers of trans prisoners convicted of serial assault, % of transwomen who never have any surgery, etc.