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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tortoise media podcast: The Tavistock

43 replies

oneaday · 30/11/2022 00:35

Inside the gender clinic

In a few months, the Tavistock – the only NHS clinic in England and Wales which treats children suffering from gender dysphoria – will close. This is the story of what happened.

The first three episodes are now available for Tortoise members to listen to without adverts, with a new episode every Monday. Non members can listen to a new episode every week, wherever they get their podcasts. www.tortoisemedia.com/listen/thetavistock/

OP posts:
DameMaud · 13/12/2022 16:25

InterestingUsernameTBC · 13/12/2022 15:46

My take-away was that the scandal they unveiled at the Tavistock was that politics had intervened in the medical treatment of 'trans kids', interfering in the right of every young person to socially transition if they wanted.

I was also left wondering how on Earth someone medically transitions to non binary.

Yes. This names and articulates what I was left with. Thank you

nauticant · 13/12/2022 18:45

What you wrote DameMaud matches my listening experience. The way I interpret this:

I had a vague kind of anxiety all the way through listening that I can't explain.

is that to me there's a tension in the programme between the journalist (Polly Curtis) evidently recognising that things have gone very badly wrong and yet she is constrained from following the threads to some rather obvious conclusions.

For example Curtis paints Keira Bell as an outlier but didn't actually provide the audience with what the evidence was in the judgment, ie the medical pathway being a one-way inevitable journey. She suggested that there's no evidence that post-drugs (puberty blockers and/or cross-sex hormones) detransition is actually a thing which was surprising. It's part of a pattern of her identifying as being non-partisan while taking pot-shots at gender critical naratives to demonstrate her independence.

However, this can lead her to mislead the audience. Having discussed the impact of the Keira Bell judgment, she then disposed of it in a couple of sentences as having been overturned. This misses the point hugely, the Court of Appeal deciding to overturn the judgment was actually about the High Court having overreached its powers, but the devastating evidence revealed by at the lower level was left completely untouched by the Court of Appeal.

She said something like: what I'm trying to do in this podcast is to get past the binary arguments and say that lots of things are true. She wants to find a truth that's somewhere in the middle and her podcast of framed to steer things to this place. Her mission is to persuade her audience that there are "entrenched positions on both sides" and the right place to be is between them.

Curtis says that the story of the Tavistock is when "culture outpaces the science and then the politics kick in". This is a narrow expression of what has gone on. For someone who says she asks the questions that need to be asked, what about this question: What if giving puberty blockers to children, or at least to children beyond a core group that have had clinically diagnosed gender dyphoria from when they were a small child, is a terrible idea? Not asking this question fits in with her not discussing detransitioners at all beyond a few brief references in passing. I expect she'd say that these were issues beyond the scope of the programme looking into what had gone on in the Tavistock, but it just feels that this leaves a gaping hole at the centre of the podcast.

I also strongly disliked that in the final episode Curtis then framed the narrative, that is the true story, into two things:
the suicides of young people while on the waiting list, and
what happened at the Tavistock at the end, and related matters, were as a result of political meddling, and Curtis was then able to steer things onto the much more comfortable territory of "it's a familiar story of NHS scarcity compounded by a culture war."
These two aspects seemed to me like a Get Out of Jail Card meaning that other thorny issues throughout the podcast could minimised. This framing then became her "scoop" and I felt manipulated as Curtis delivered this framing.

Her background might be relevant:

Polly Curtis ... spent much of her career at the Guardian where she reported on health, social affairs and education, before joining the lobby team as Whitehall Editor, writing about government and policy. She went on to be digital editor of the Guardian, then led newsrooms as Editor-in-Chief at HuffPost UK, a Partner at Tortoise Media and Managing Director at PA Media.

Maybe what the podcast was actually about was a journalist struggling to escape from her own capture. But because of her background and networks, it's not completely successful and is painful to witness.

Overall, the podcast left me with the impression that gender identity ideology will fall apart. Curtis handled it very carefully but even she found it disintegrating in her hands. Contrast that with the gender critical approaches. She went after them in a number of different ways but did they disintegrate in a similar way?

nauticant · 13/12/2022 18:51

Also, like ReunitedThorns I found the affectation of "the Tavi" really annoying, along with her use of the glottal stop.

tumbledownplonk · 13/12/2022 18:51

Just finished the 6th episode.

3&4 were really good in my opinion.

5&6 were disappointing.

It seemed like Polly Curtis ran with the 15 suicide stat which she kept acknowledging she needs to be careful with. I was a bit confused but think she drew the conclusion that the 'real scandal' is the long waiting list.

Other areas left untouched

is it really acceptable for the clinic to have such strict ideas about clinician approaches when the accepted approach isn't based in evidence? Comparing to abortion very disingenuous since abortion is a measurable procedure. Teenage distress is very different.

Steph in the end suggested some benefit from waiting those years.

Kirsty Entwistle made a crucial point about children driving themselves towards harm and how adults must protect them. This should have been revisited in context of Tavistock.

Why is it so hard to recruit into gender care?

Overall it was great to hear from people at GIDS including patients and their family

DameMaud · 13/12/2022 20:04

Yes Nauticant and tumbledown. you've picked up on many of the points that sat so uncomfortably with me!
There was so much going on for me as I listened, that I forgot about the poor framing of the Keira Bell case and detransitioners (and not linking this to lack of follow up).
The last 2 episodes did feel like Curtis was pulling back to me.
Very interesting re her background Nauticant, does perhaps explain what might be her own inner conflict that comes across.

And I agree tumble, that more from the clinicians was needed- especially as low staff resources and lack of consensus of approach is so central to the problem. I would have liked to hear David Bel or Marcus or Sue Evans, but imagine PC wouldn't have agreed if they were involved?

Other issues for me that should have been explored were safeguarding/Sonja Appleby, and mermaids relationship.

There's so much, that I should probably listen again to identify all the parts that bothered me-but I don't think I can take the discomfort!

Having said all this, I think there was still value in it, and I'll try to hold on to your optimism Nauticant!

nauticant · 13/12/2022 20:15

Yes DameMaud, I do view it as positive that this podcast documentary was made, and it is worth a listen.

I'd like to think that when the real how-on-earth-was-this-scandal-allowed-to-happen documentaries are being made in a decade, this podcast will be referred to as a waymark on the long road back to sanity.

tumbledownplonk · 13/12/2022 20:59

I like your positivity @nauticant

@DameMaud I think I'll listen again as well.

Totally agree about Sonia Appleby.

It strikes me as very rigid to always say the gender identity comes first before co-morbidities as humans simply aren't like that. Specialist health services usually benefit hugely from multi disciplinary input eg weight management for diabetes. You don't withhold eg insulin but you do address the holistic picture.

It's strange that the Tavistock seems to be less holistic than other non-mental health specialties.

I also found the equivalence with homosexuality/errors around that to be forced.

Exploring what makes someone gay is unhelpful and cruel and past focus on that was a mistake now understood. But gay people were never asking people to perform surgery on them or sign for life changing drugs. It isn't the same to ask someone to explore what might be driving a desire for eg a mastectomy. Seems disingenuous to say don't want to make the same mistake again so we deliberately won't apply any analysis on new physical treatments.

Polly Carmichael I haven't researched much but she came across as frighteningly dogmatic and insular. Very confident but not reflective in words or actions.

Kirsty E came across extremely well in my opinion.

Sorry for wall of text, I've been looking for people to talk to about this.

DameMaud · 13/12/2022 22:10

It is a relief to discuss and know others have similar take aways and misgivings.
It felt close but not far enough for those of us who have been following this for years.
I'm wondering if the open approach to the topic would raise some of questions (like about asking about being trans Vs asking about being gay as you say tumble) in people's minds- people who are just coming to all this...and set them on their own journey of thinking outside of the narrative
I like to imagine that nauticant's vision of how this will be seen in the coming years is right.

DameMaud · 13/12/2022 22:18

Even if it just makes people look for more info on the Tavistock. They're bound to come across interviews with/articles by David Bell, Marcus and Sue Evans, Sonja A, more about Keira etc.

At least there's lots out there now and more easily accessed.

If the least it's done is to pique more interest (and maybe it's all the more likely to do so by presenting as being balanced/impartial, and highlighting unanswered questions and mystery etc), then that's a good thing.

nauticant · 16/12/2022 15:38

The review in The Times focuses on the walking-on-eggshells tone of the podcast:

archive.vn/Md3mA

JacquelinePot · 16/12/2022 15:55

I finished it yesterday and found it incredibly frustrating.

Polly Carmichael is genuinely frightening.

DameMaud · 16/12/2022 16:00

nauticant · 16/12/2022 15:38

The review in The Times focuses on the walking-on-eggshells tone of the podcast:

archive.vn/Md3mA

Thanks for this Nauticant.
He is spot on.

"I’m not sure I’ve ever listened to a podcast so hedged with warnings, caveats, pre-emptive apologies and clarifications.."

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 16/12/2022 18:57

JacquelinePot · 16/12/2022 15:55

I finished it yesterday and found it incredibly frustrating.

Polly Carmichael is genuinely frightening.

That’s more or less what I took away from it.

Polly Carmichael = Susie Green but scarier (because Carmichael is a professional with a post graduate degree and decades of experience, not just an ideologue mother who fell into a million pounds worth of charity donations).

ReunitedThorns · 23/12/2022 22:11

Finished the final episode, seems like as soon as there's any mention of a Tory it's like read meat to a former Guardian journalist. Seemed fine for the political meddling by charities like Mermaids, but politicians shouldn't get involved?

No explanation of what medical transition to non-binary meant. "I have to be careful about talking about suicide, but it's linked to the waiting lists".

tumbledownplonk · 24/12/2022 07:51

ReunitedThorns · 23/12/2022 22:11

Finished the final episode, seems like as soon as there's any mention of a Tory it's like read meat to a former Guardian journalist. Seemed fine for the political meddling by charities like Mermaids, but politicians shouldn't get involved?

No explanation of what medical transition to non-binary meant. "I have to be careful about talking about suicide, but it's linked to the waiting lists".

Yeah the last two episodes were strange. What was she actually trying to say about the suicide stats?

gwrachod · 10/04/2023 23:07

I just listened to this and found it interesting but in the end, very frustrating.

I think this comment is bang on:

The journalist, Polly Curtis, makes a real effort but overall you get the sense of her saying "the true situation can't be according to that bunch of activists, and can't be according to the opposing bunch of activists, so I'm going to put it mid-way between the two".

And I think this is the failing of it as an investigative piece, in the end.

I don't think anyone hearing it will get an idea of what feminists' and parents are actually concerned about.

There was no real understanding or explanation of the risks of medical transition for children. Brittle bones were mentioned, and there was mention of one of the young people having sperm frozen while on the waiting list.

But no explanation that children who start medical transition young are risking not only their fertility but also their sexual function.

No mention of other side effects e.g. the brain fog often described by kids on blockers, or of the worries about what it means to arrest a child's brain development with blockers, keeping them childlike.

Polly Curtis might say she didn't include these as we don't have definitive studies on the level of risk, but without this info, how can those unfamiliar with the debate make sense of parents' objections? Will they see the featured mother's objections as anything other than an inability to accept changes in her daughter / transphobia?

Also, why weren't the concerns in David Bell's report covered? Why was airtime given to the way in which the report was covered and not the substance of the report?

I don't expect someone who is trying hard to be impartial to agree with our concerns, but I would expect core concerns such as the damage to children's health and wellbeing to be explored.

Why does Polly Curtis think parents object to medical transition? It came across that it was only a clash of ideologies, not also reasonable concern about unnecessary interventions leading to significant medical injury.

Detransitioners were hamdwaved away by saying Keira Bell's case is very unusual. But as there has been no follow up at GIDS, and given the growing detransitioner communities, how can anyone say that with confidence?

All in all, disappointing.

People new to the debate could listen to the entire thing and still be none the wiser to why so many people are so concerned about medical transition for kids.

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 11/04/2023 09:05

I agree.

Compared to Hannah Barnes’ podcast appearances promoting her book Time to Think the Tortoise series was pointless.

And Hannah is very careful not to dismiss the testimony of happy transitioned adults and in doing so manages to confidently walk the line that Polly Curtis tiptoes along without getting anywhere.

Hannah’s recent appearance on Modern Wisdom with Chris Williams is particularly excellent as he’s someone who is engaged with connected wider cultural themes but is starting more or less from the beginning in terms of learning about paediatric transition and GIDS and Hannah takes him through the whole story.

A good one to share with newbies

(I had no idea what Hannah looked like until this but I know her voice so well from all her years narrating on Newsnight!)

The Collapse Of The UK’s Gender Identity Clinic - Hannah Barnes | Modern Wisdom 611

Hannah Barnes is an award-winning analytical and investigative journalist at the BBC, and an author.Finding your place in the world can be hard. However, som...

https://youtu.be/kdBfHwzDYLg

sillybillydh · 03/03/2025 09:17

I know this is an old thread but someone linked to it for me. I've recently listened to this podcast which now has an episode 7, it came out in June 2023. This episode is mainly about Gender GP and interviews Helen Webberly. As someone who knew little to nothing about her I'm pretty speechless at how she practices and is allowed to continue practicing.

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