R4 Woman's Hour on the clitoris

[pombear]

Did anyone catch this? Whilst it all sounded very positive in terms of new research about the clitoris, finally not on cows but with females, it turns out that the new research is due to the outputs of 'gender-affirming care'.

There was so much normalisation/brushing off the impact of phalloplasty surgery - it was just mentioned in passing. Whilst I realise Woman's Hour can't investigate every segment in detail, the lightness of reference concerns me.

One of the key researchers was Dr Blair Peters, described on Woman's Hour as a 'gender affirmation plastic surgeon who goes by Queer Surgeon on social media', ...'suddenly Dr Peters was like 'hey, I have access to these nerves and this is important to the patients I work with as well, so together, he was able to use some of the nerves he trims off during an operation called phalloplasty, and magnify them and count up the nerves'.

Interestingly, they then go on to discuss the research 'done on women'. (I'm not sure the women who identify as men, who've had their 'trimmed' clitoris studied would like to be referred to as women - surely a complaint due to R4 about transphobic language!)

This article about the research is much more attuned to the ideological language, ie 'people with vulvas'.
news.ohsu.edu/2022/10/27/pleasure-producing-human-clitoris-has-more-than-10-000-nerve-fibers

Peters studies clitoral nerves to improve outcomes for phalloplasty surgery, which creates a new penis for transmasculine patients. He aims to use the findings to improve sensation for surgical patients by better selecting nerves to connect during phalloplasty procedures, as well as to develop new surgical techniques to repair injured nerves.

The findings could also help reduce accidental nerve damage for patients who undergo an aesthetic procedure known as labiaplasty, which reduces the size of inner flaps of skin on either side of the vaginal opening.

Normalising both phalloplasty surgery, and labiaplasty - both surgeries that carry high degrees of risk of complications, and driven yet again by women's discomfort by their own body image.

This statement is the most disturbing:
“Better understanding the clitoris can help everyone, regardless of their gender identity, but it’s important to acknowledge this research is only possible because of gender-affirming surgeries and transgender patients,” Peters said. “There’s something profound about the fact that gender-affirming care becoming more commonplace also benefits other areas of health care. A rising tide lifts all boats. Oppressing or limiting transgender health care will harm everyone.”

'Trimming' off a woman's clitoris, reducing sensation, damaging nerves, to attach a non-functional flap of arm or leg skin 'lifts all boats'. 🤔

Using this research to suggest that opposing this high-risk surgery on dysphoric women 'will harm everyone' is abhorrent.

I'm jaded.

Research the clitoris when women demand better understanding of their bodies: nah, not profitable enough.

Research the clitoris when men want a copy, oh fabulous! We'll research some females to figure out what to do for the males (and females, of course! ).

God, yes of course if you dissect a clitoris whilst it’s still attached to a live woman you are going to learn some interesting things. Question is, is it ethical to do so?

When is FGM not FGM?

Ah don't worry Blister, Peters seems to understand that the penis is not the same as the clitoris.

He's also studying the nerves in the penile tip:
Moving forward, Peters is also interested in studying and counting nerve fibers in a pleasure-inducing part of the penis: the tip, which is also known as the glans penis. That knowledge could improve clitoral construction in gender-affirming genital surgeries for transfeminine patients, and also help clinicians better understand comparable nerve structures between the clitoris and the penis.

Which is just as noble as studying the trimmed clitoris, I guess, if you are so invested in these surgeries that you're trying to fix the shit you've destroyed by selling the impossible dream of creating opposite-sex genitals by phalloplasty or vagnioplasty .

Exactly.

The findings could also help reduce accidental nerve damage for patients who undergo an aesthetic procedure known as labiaplasty, which reduces the size of inner flaps of skin on either side of the vaginal opening.

You know what else could reduce accidental nerve damage? Teaching women that their healthy bodies are perfectly fine, however they look, that there is no requirement to try and look like a porn star.

Wouldn't make so much money for the plastic surgeons, of course.

No argument here, Peter will definitely know what the penis is:

"While the penis has been widely studied, the vulva — which includes the clitoris, labia majora and labia minora — is poorly understood. Medical science hasn’t historically paid much attention to the sexual function of people with vulvas, which has led to a significant knowledge gap in the field of sexual health."

I'll get my coat.
And tin foil hat.

When it’s in the West, apparently.

What a horrific thing.

👆

I'd add body builder to the list of stereotypical bodies girls now need to aim for.

Nazi experimentation on their prisoners springs to mind. The research may be benefitting all mankind (or womankind) but every 'trimmed clitoris' is still potentially a mutilation of a mentally ill person imo.

Christ. Open admission of fgm.

Maybe the research will tell us if gender identity is in the clitoris?

And the penile glans of course but I'm guessing I'll be the one accused of focusing on genitals rather than the person opening them up.

yes I heard this brush-off of FGM and wondered about how long it will take for the link to be made.

of course FGM is sometimes "consensual" too, where a girl has come under cultural pressure to believe that it's something she wants, and part of her identity.

removing someone's clitoris is almost never an ethical thing to do. it's not something that can be consented to because its impossible to adequately be 'informed' about the depth of the impact that its removal will have. I can totally understand that someone could have deeply dysphoric feelings about it but those should properly be addressed by counselling and support not surgery. my heart breaks for the individuals who will never feel sexual pleasure because the organ that exists for this purpose was trimmed off in pursuit of a sexist lie.

This is just so shocking.

Saying everything out loud, with a positive gloss put on by our public broadcaster.

This is all, v clearly, highly experimental with unknown and unpredictable outcomes for sexual function and feeling. And yet, having any queries or issues with it is "transphobic" apparently.

Why can't anyone understand that arguing that trans people deserve to not be the experiments is the opposite of phobic.

Ffs I though Woman’s Hour were getting better recently but they’re surely just openly trolling us now. They had that silly positive period woman the other day who wants to improve the literacy around periods/menstruation, but can’t mention women and girls and now this casual glossing over FGM because they’ve discovered something interesting about women’s genitals now that ‘Woman’ is all about male people. How did we get here?!