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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For anyone who thought the Guardian had seen the light...

39 replies

RoyalCorgi · 26/11/2022 11:23

A whole article on pronouns in the Saturday paper:

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/26/pronouns-gendered-language-revolution-britain

OP posts:
DontAskIDontKnow · 26/11/2022 16:20

EndlessTea · 26/11/2022 14:51

Half a paragraph in and I’m thinking ODFOD. I cannot be entertaining the self-absorbed bullshit of others. Everyone, put yourselves and your inner lives first. Anyone who wants you to prioritise their inner life over your own, needs to do one. Tiresome, tedious twats. FOTHFSOF.

Funnily enough I got a few lines in and decided that if I am asked to out pronouns in my email I might go with OD/FOD.

I dragged my eyes across the rest of the article. It’s amazing how many people are having a revelation that gender stereotypes don’t fit them.

EndlessTea · 26/11/2022 16:33

DontAsk it makes me think that it can’t just be us. I bet you the vast majority of people feel exactly the same.

howmanybicycles · 26/11/2022 17:19

Person in their 30's says they identify like a boy rather than a man and no-one seems to pick up on how disgusting and creepy that is. Right then.

ValerieDoonican · 26/11/2022 17:30

Yeah I noticed the "boy" bit. Very Eddie Izzard 😐

Ofcourseshecan · 26/11/2022 17:36

JellySaurus · 26/11/2022 11:30

I suppose I'll have to read the entire article, but just the subheading already grates:

There’s a quiet revolution happening over how we address people, and behind it lies a surprising history …

No! It is not about how we address people! It is about how we refer to them.

It is not about addressing them in the way they would like, by their name or rank. That is courtesy by the speaker. It is about controlling how the speaker refers to somebody else. It is about coercive control by another person, even when they are not present.

Yes , exactly. This writer falls at the first fence. It’s also not a quiet revolution but a bellowing abusive one.

DrBlackbird · 26/11/2022 17:37

Hadley leaving. We know why. Suzanne left. We know why. If John and Marina leave, that’ll be it for me. God knows that this country needs a corrective to the right’s capture of MSM in this country. But The Guardian is failing on so many fronts, not just this one. Viner is such a disappointment after years of brilliant guardian editors. What’s worse is teaching my DC and DN to read it too.

To be honest, I find all this navel gazing and reflection about the “self” really tiresome. i think that some people are incredibly fascinated by their sense of self and enjoy preening it, cultivating their personal identity like a hobby (see the person in the article who finally decides they are a “boy”.) it’s a little bit like people who find religion and suddenly it’s the most all consuming, interesting thing in their lives. But I find it quite narcissistic and consumerist , and I resent the pronoun shit because it means that I’m dragged in as a participant in their self-building.

This^^ Teens do navel gaze in trying to work out who they are, but pronouns and gender politics is making that so much harder for them. No big surprise that it’s all young girls IME who opt for ’they’ or ‘him’ in this hypersexualised extremely misogynistic world. And I can’t blame my DC for the confusion when putative feminist colleagues have also swallowed pronouns hook, line and sinker including name badges and email signatures.

But almost it’s the narcissistic turn to the self and subsequent entitlement that is the most troubling. That way brings only unhappiness.

ArabellaScott · 26/11/2022 18:06

Did a bloke write it?

I've not read the article or the thread here, I want to put a bet on with myself that it's a bloke first.

ArabellaScott · 26/11/2022 18:07

Ha, well, that'll learn me. 😄

puffyisgood · 26/11/2022 21:19

swive me, what a load of miserable nonsense.

surely this is only any kind of issue in the really heavily gendered languages, eg a German writing an email can barely get out of the choice between addressing a recipient as 'lieber' or 'lieber'? pronouns are just so easy to swerve altogether.

miserable virtue signalling/appropriation of other cultures' issues, far worse than before the England-USA match last night when the (fairly black) American team stood on in puzzlement as the (less black) England team 'took the knee' with ham-fistedly exaggerated solemness

FlirtsWithRhinos · 26/11/2022 21:32

FrancescaContini · 26/11/2022 15:13

I’d be infinitely more interested in what they had for breakfast. Pronoun bores can just bore off.

Actually I'd find a genuine conversation about gender identity, where we can explore questions like "why do you feel your gender does/doesn't match mine? What do you feel like? What do you believe I feel like? This is how it feels to be me, growing up in the body I have...do those experiences fit what you expected? How did you experience those things?" incredibly interesting.

But that is not what's on offer, is it? The trans-identified and their TRA "allies" have no interest in hearing how the people they are shoving into gender boxes really feel and think, or the effect that their redefining the world into mental gender boxes has on us, in case it doesn't fit the beliefs they have build their own identities on.

MoirasSaggyBundles · 26/11/2022 21:36

FrancescaContini · 26/11/2022 15:06

Can’t even be bothered to read this navel gazing bullshit.

For people who insist on pronouns: I will refer to you however I like in your absence. If you’re standing in front of me and I need to address you I will, of course, use “you”. This is how English works.

Yes, but the TRA movement relies on 3rd parties policing your language and castigating you for misgendering the holy bepronouned one. Flying monkeys make this world go round.

bellinisurge · 26/11/2022 22:11

It really was TL:DR but as I skimmed it, this bullshit plopped out "Because personal pronouns not only give people a sense of their place in the world but also, in the English language at least, have for centuries been used to keep them in their place, socially and politically. "

The only people who have been kept in their place by pronouns are BIOLOGICAL WOMEN. More appropriation of women's history and experiences.

And it's so fucking anglocentric. It's no different to watching an episode of Friends in a foreign language and sharing the in jokes.

taracetamol · 26/11/2022 22:16

Rubidium · 26/11/2022 11:43

Heaven help these people if they ever encounter anyone who doesn’t have English as a first language.

I used to work with a person whose first language was Spanish. In a Facebook post, they asked their English speaking friends to respect their non-binary identity and pronouns, yet also said that their Spanish/Catalan friends could continue to use she/her as they understood that it wasn't possible to use their chosen pronouns in Spanish or Catalan.

KatMcBundleFace · 30/11/2022 22:27

Oooo they've published a gc letter alongside the gender wang ones

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/30/a-full-exploration-of-the-rise-in-gender-questioning-girls-is-much-needed

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