Is it okay to work with groups whose principles you dont share as a feminist, but there is a common cause?

[IwantToRetire]

Education not indoctrination
The events was organised by a coalition of groups including the Christian Institute, which opposes abortion, same-sex marriage and euthanasia, Stand By Me Scotland, which opposed the wearing of facemasks in schools during the pandemic, Academics for Academic Freedom and For Women Scotland, which opposes Scottish government plans for people to be able to self-identify their legal gender.
www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/education-not-indoctrination-tickets-426737442177

Glasgow venue cancels booking for cancel culture conference
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/04e3fa4a-6696-11ed-9c3b-2d9184d0076f?shareToken=4ffe4f56d755905a476b686c75b65dd0&fbclid=IwAR1UHupPu9Xu4bD_gF0JoJb0A9u-bE2RDTcRqmbt9c8bpRUird9JTGbG8o8

I don’t want to derail the thread, but I disagree. Lots of evidence to back it up.

if we are taking about who we consider to be the real feminists, in my opinion, it does not include those who want an underclass of women and girls as human fuck-dolls for men.

I don’t give a shit what they think

The thing is left leaning feminists would say the same about TERF style feminism.

But ... 'TERF' feminists are mostly left leaning, ime, so this comment doesn't really make sense.

Also, posters scoff at beliefs being "infectious" but peoples political ideology and social outlook absolutely can be changed and influenced? It's not really something to joke about to be honest.

Quite a crucial point in this discussion.

Yes, ideology and outlook can be changed and influenced. Thank fuck, eh, or we'd have no hope of ever changing anything!

There does seem to be an emotional, tribalist way of thinking about beliefs, thoughts, ideas, that suggests that someone is at risk of having these changed if they associate wth anyone with different views. As if ideas have some kind of mystical power to accidentally fall into our heads and change our views against our will.

I'd say that yes, we should be open to changing views, of course we should - I try to listen, research, assess and base my views on information and reason. What's the alternative? Clinging to a view because our pals have it, or it's fashionable, or a certain newspaper says that's how we ought to think? No, that's not for me.

Listen to everything, assess it all, test it out, think it through, try it from different angles. Allow for the fact that you might be wrong, allow space to change your mind, allow for the fact that others have different views.

As for influence and 'brainwashing' and infectious thoughts ... humans are susceptible to groupthink, and persuasion. We learn how this works and we exercise our muscles of cognitive abilities by the process I've outlined above. One becomes aware of blind spots, weak areas in reasoning, etc, by testing it all ou in discussion - and not just with those we agree with!

Here's another example of feminists and religious groups working together for a common cause:

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/03/left-wing-feminists-conservative-catholics-unite/520968/

Feminists and Catholics oppose surrogacy for different reasons, but as one of the feminists quoted in that article says:

“We see it as a struggle against the patriarchy, the Catholics see it as a struggle to preserve the traditional family, some anarchists see it as a struggle against capitalism—and I don’t have any problem with this.”

Is this the sort of thing you were looking for @IwantToRetire ?

feminists so comfortable and companiable with these right wing skewed ways of thinking

Again with suggesting women here are 'right wing'. Stop trying to stuff people into such simplistic boxes.

"As a left leaning feminist I've been accused of acquiescing to mens' opinions and putting them above womens' if I support any aspect of trans "ideology". "

Genuine question. Is there any aspect of trans ideology that you do support?

Exactly. I mean the RF in TERF stands for radical feminist. Radical feminism has its roots in Marxist-type class analysis.

When I say I don’t give a shit what they think (or say, for that matter), I am referring to the leftist groupthink enforcers, not what any left-leaning feminist, myself included, thinks.

So now think this thread should have been why aren't the left and the liberals supporting women? Is it any wonder that the vaccum created by the failure of the left liberal axis means that women have had to look elsewhere, even if only to make a temporary common cause.

So the answer to my own OP isn't is it okay, but that it makes double the work. Not only having clearly defined positions within the work alliance, but also wasting hours dealing with accusations by those doing nothing that you are a political traitor, or actual intimidation

That is a whole other question!

I think none of this time is wasted. We're trying to work stuff out, it takes time. Painstaking time to sort out misunderstandings etc. Yes, it's tiresome to go over things, but discussion hopefully can be productive, strengthen arguments, gain clarity, etc. It also reveals some big flaws in left thinking, yes. Namely tribalism, magical thinking, certain intellectual lazinesses.

If the left want to strengthen their cause they need to attend to these problems. Urgently.

I think that will only happen when we get beyond this very emotional, black and white way of dividing people into 'goodies' and 'baddies'. We need nuance, calm, patience, critical thinking. Then we need the left to listen. They won't listen so long as they keep dismissing all disagreement as monstrously evil.

And frankly our whole political system and society suffers so long as the discussion is a childish purity spiral. We need a robust, effective, adult opposition at the very least to challenge and examine the current govt.

I do appreciate your lovely, poised posting-style @ArabellaScott it shows up how I have descended.

Yep. It's a long, greasy, twisted purity spiral that they want us to fall down into.

I used to take it more seriously, when I thought there were genuine arguments there. But the more you push people to explain their stance, the more obfuscation, goalpost shifting, and insults you get. It finally dawned on me that it really is as simple as them believing that anyone not in their clique is a bad person. Anyone who votes tory, anyone who has a religious belief, anyone who doesn't subscribe to the tenets of socialism feminism - they are bad. And their opinions are therefore also bad. Oh, and anyone who's not a socialist feminist is weak-minded and easily led so must never be exposed to any other viewpoints.

So yeah. It's all bollocks. Cooperation across diverse interest groups is the way forward. It shouldn't be about saying 'we have the answers, you have to follow us or you're morally wrong'. It's about saying, 'we all have an interest here. What's the best way to get us closer to our shared goals without imposing on one another?'

Why thank you, darling, can confirm I am very rarely called lovely and poised, but I'll take it! 😂

it really is as simple as them believing that anyone not in their clique is a bad person. Anyone who votes tory, anyone who has a religious belief, anyone who doesn't subscribe to the tenets of socialism feminism - they are bad. And their opinions are therefore also bad

Sadly, I think this is often accurate. I do think that social media/the internet has reinforced this soundbitey, meme-based suggestion that we are all reducible to flags or walking labels. Out in the real world we are all encountering people of varying stripes, religions, beliefs, etc all the time, mostly without all that much friction. We rub along, don't we? For the most part, in the UK. More in common, and all that.

I think that will only happen when we get beyond this very emotional, black and white way of dividing people into 'goodies' and 'baddies'. We need nuance, calm, patience, critical thinking. Then we need the left to listen. They won't listen so long as they keep dismissing all disagreement as monstrously evil.

Yes. As someone said on another thread, #nodebate has done the trans cause no favour at all. They haven't had to hone their arguments, find their weak spots, test their ideas against reality or against opposition. We have. So when #nodebate was over, we were primed and ready to go and the other side could only insult, threaten, and use violence to try and shut us up.

This seems to be what's happening with the socialist feminists/Real Feminists/Actual Gender Critical Feminists. They've decided they're right, there's no room for debate and viewpoints other than theirs are "skewed" and bad. So they aren't testing out their ideas with debate. You can see it on threads like these, when people turn up and say "oh you want to work with fascists then?" It can only lead to a weakening of the integrity of the left as they can no longer articulate their ideas or persuade others.

I appreciate Dreamwhisper you have actually worked really hard to clarify, explain and defend your views. And I think it shows in the fact that the thread has become more collaborative, with you and others being more prepared to understand each other's side.

We need nuance, calm, patience, critical thinking.

I wish I was as patient as some of the women here. I get pissed off and want to get to the point. But sometimes that means I miss the point...

Thank you OP.

I, too, have concerns about the tribalism and polarisation I have seen in some groups.

I find some people’s perception of what is ‘working with’ and what is joining a discussion and contributing a point of view to be polarised.

As far as I can work out, this event is one with panels for discussion. Why on earth would a panel not have opposing views represented to allow people to be better informed and to make their own decisions?

Why is it assumed that appearing in a panel, and providing a sponsorship to do so, is ‘working with’?

To me, I look at it from a point of view that a panel should be balanced. That a balance of sessions people can attend is a good thing too.

I would attend a panel event to learn as much as I can about the views of others. I certainly would not assume I knew everything those who oppose my views believe because over time those things change. And if my role or passion depended on being able to defend a particular position, of course I want to know what those opposing my position are thinking.

The degree of tribalism, maybe absolutism and siloed thought I have read on this thread is concerning. And the insults being flung too. Proportionality seems to also be missing.

Why should anyone give a shit what you think then?

Honestly, as per usual, free speech discussions only tend to come up when people are aware on some level their views are shitty.

Interesting how suddenly the entire premise of "we should hear a diverse range of views" suddenly goes out the window now 😂

Honestly, as per usual, free speech discussions only tend to come up when people are aware on some level their views are shitty.

You genuinely think this?!

They don’t give a shit what I think. I am sullied by association aren’t I?

I am serious when I say we are in dangerous waters when people see free speech, free thought, free expression as somehow connected with having 'shitty views'.

So when people are telling you, "I don't care about purity politics, I have valid concerns", you're just going to go ahead and ignore that and double down on the purity politics line, because acknowledging otherwise doesn't fit in with your view on left leaning people?

Dream, believe, think and feel whatever you want, of course, but please will you give some consideration to what you're saying when you say that free speech is associated with 'shitty views'. That's actually chilling, on various levels.

I am being facetious.

I don’t give a shit if groupthink enforcers think I am stepping out of line. I am long beyond caring and I have outlined my rationale above. It has been a position I gradually arrived at, through careful consideration and sincere engagement. The outcome is - that I no longer trust their motives or their judgement, therefore, I no longer give a shit what they perceive mine to be.

On right leaning forums all over the internet, yes the very valid and true fact of free speech is perverted and trotted out to defend some pretty reprehensible stuff.

My point is not about Free Speech, it's about the types of people who bring it out in online debates.

I've genuinely never felt the need to go on about free speech in the context of my own views.

Perhaps that means you are not a free thinker?

Right, and there you have my view on conservative groups in a nutshell. I don't trust their underlying motivations and how these motivations inform their actions.