Female yes safe no

[autienotnaughty]

So I believe that we all have the right to identify however we choose regardless of our gender at birth.
But
I also think that women have the right to be safe and due to the risk to women that men pose I feel women do need safe spaces and also their own space in sports otherwise they risk losing their identity in sport. So to me the answer is womens spaces, gender neutral spaces and mens spaces. Gender neutral encompasses male, female, trans male, trans female, gender neutral, pan gender, non binary etc.

The way I see it is we live in an inclusive society that recognises peoples right to live their life as they choose but the need for women safety is paramount.

Great idea, you won’t likely find much argument here. Please do try persuading “team trans” of your proposal. I will be impressed if you get anywhere with it. They usually say it is othering or some such.

autie are you having trouble seeing your other threads? Maybe MNHQ can merge them if you like.

Yes.

There is a widespread misunderstanding that the unkind feminists are trying to dismantle trans rights. But virtually all are agreed that third spaces would work fine.

There may be some practicalities to be resolved (eg in a public building which currently has exactly two toilets etc) but in principle it would appear that everyone wins.

Penis people who want to be validated as women are not interested in third spaces.

Why have you created two threads on the same topic? You should ask to have one deleted.

They have emailed me saying my threads are posting multiple times but I'm getting told they are not posting. I've emails back. Apologies if everyone's feed is blocked up with me today.

Sorry glitch in the system

Completely agree, however the reasonable suggestion for a third space for both sexes has time and time again been hailed as transphobic because a third space does not offer the validation that many trans people (let's be honest, it's mainly transwomen) seek.

The main agenda is to have whatever women have as their own, therefore gender neutral spaces just don't cut the mustard.

Well.... you have certainly made a 'splash' on the boards this afternoon! 😁

Sounds good to me

@Helleofabore 😂😂😂😂 I was taking your advice and putting my point across nicely. I'm blaming you for this 🤦‍♀️

I think the thing here is people can choose to live however they wish to, and identify and whatever they wish to. Does not mean that we have to start creating a new locker room/sport/space for every identity chosen.

Scientifically a person is a male or a female. How they choose to life their life around that is up to them, but suck it up. Why should everyone else change to accommodate their preference of identity.

😂 Fair cop autie!

Little did we know that you would end up with about a zillion threads all at once. Quite the record!

I vote for that.

I vote for males staying out of women's spaces. If males don't want to be in men's spaces then they can set up their own spaces and call them whatever made up word they want.

Luckily for me I can't see these extra threads only this one ! Are people replying on all of them??

Thanks for the replies its good to get some views I will try to be less judgmental going forward.

Can you see this one?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/trans-women-are-women-but-1?page=1

Ahh so it's just saying the same duplicating? How dull for everyone!

I think the others have been deleted. So you don't have to worry about replying to a gazillion threads now.

The focus is often on why biological males who identify as females shouldn’t use female toilets, understandably to keep women safe. But on the flip side surely as a trans person you’d want somewhere you feel safe as well. Ie a biological female who identifies as a male is just as unsafe, if not more using male toilets. It makes perfect sense to have neutral toilets or where possible individual toilets with sinks in so that it’s not a shared space at all.

Why should a biological female feel unsafe in the women's toilets?

Or is this a definition of 'unsafe' that does not relate to language as everybody understands it? (Rather like TRAs' definition of 'woman'.)

I think unfortunately male and female trans people feel unsafe using male toilets but agree that doesn't mean the solution is womens toilets.

To go back to the OP:
"So I believe that we all have the right to identify however we choose regardless of our gender at birth."

'Identifying' means laying claim to something you're not. Should that really be a "right"? Do we really have a right to claim things that are untrue?

You could claim that the problem is not the initial self-identification, that the problems start when others are compelled to pretend that they believe the self-identifier over their own eyes. But that's just word games really.

So I take issue with the initial premise, that people have a RIGHT to do this.

Of course you have the right to identify however you choose. Say the words, "I identify as ... the Akond of Swat [or whatever you like]." Done.

But you don't have the right to be whatever you choose. Only the Akond of Swat can be the Akond of Swat. (I'm not really clear how this can be missed, but there it is.)

In particular, if you're a man, identify, however you like, you still can't be a woman. Why so? -Because, if you're a man, it's impossible for you to be a woman.

Identify, schmidentify ... This makes some people feel sad.

Oh well. Perhaps it is sad that you can't be whatever you want. Really, though, most grown-ups get over it.

I don't actually think that is true though. I know a tw who transitioned 2 years ago and now uses the female toilets at work and at the gym. They used the male toilets beforehand- what changed? I can't believe they feel vulnerable sharing space with exactly the same men they shared with for years. They just like the validation.