These email pronouns at work

[TheOGCCL]

Reading round the trans topic one thing I think we can say is it’s incredibly contested.

Do people who use email pronouns at work realise this? Have they done their research and then consciously decided to come down on one side and want to publicly announce this? And why this particular topic, you wouldn’t put Black Lives Matter in your email signature.

Personally I don’t think work is a place for getting involved in this debate at all, I have no interest in what gender any of my colleagues are/were/want to be and it has no bearing on how I’d treat them, so why do so many think this is a good idea?

Because a lot of people don't actually think it's incredibly contested. They have busy lives, they don't know any transpeople, they don't have kids, they get their news mostly from the BBC and the Guardian, they are told (from HR, from diversity trainers, by EDI initiaves) that stating their pronouns is a neutral thing - well, I'm female so it's obvious anyway and if it makes life easier for a couple of trans people in the workplace to state my pronouns then why not do something kind.

I'm basing this on my colleagues who are lovely people but have no idea of any of this stuff. They are absolutely not TWAW either - when things like sport, prisons, rape crisis shelters etc are brought up are absolutely in agreement that they should be single sex. It's just that pronouns in an email footer or when prompted by LinkedIn feels like no big deal.

It's a wanky move and I refuse to do it.

What @Xiaoxiong said. I work with people in the NHS, third sector & local authorities. They’re nearly all be be prounoned because they’ve all been to the stonewall E&D training that says “it’s just being kind to a marginalised minority” and are subject to emails from the E&D lead telling them the same. Other than a handful of true believers I don’t think the vast majority think beyond that.

I very much doubt they think men actually become women or what it is they’re really being asked to buy into

I do inwardly cheer though when I see a signature without them

Yes I have consciously come down on one 'side'. No, I do not want to publicly announce it. Nor do I wish to debate it. I think it is pretty telling that some people don't know why people might do it.

But I reckon most do know. They just don't think its valid and would much rather 'debate' people's lives.

I unsubscribe from anything when pronouns are in the email.

Straight in with the hyperbole

no one is debating anyone’s lives or right to exist or anything else

we simply don’t accept people can change sex because they can’t

also as we very well know pronouns are the thin edge of the wedge. It starts off with that and ends up with men in women’s refuges or women’s sport

I think a lot of people don’t really think much about it beyond it being “kind” to and showing solidarity with trans and NB people. I’d probably have been the same a few years ago.

Now I see this practice for what it is and no way will I be complying. I’d prefer to just say no if asked about it and not go into it but if for any reason that wasn’t enough I’d explain

It wasn't me who suggested this was a debate.

It wasn't me who suggested this was a debate.

Yes, it's a debate about whether, when legally and socially categorising who is male and who is female in those limited circumstances in which such categorisation is necessary, the undefinable, recently invented and self declared characteristic of 'gender identity' should now trump the provable, biological, material reality of sex.

That's not a debate about anyone's right to live or about whether anyone exists, ffs.

It must be exhausting to be so obtuse.

I like it. I have a male name and people have been confused meeting me if we've never met in person. I honestly don't see how knowing if someone is a man or woman when you can't see them to work it out is causing problems for you.

I received a mail
With he him pronouns

As a female who has struggled at times to be heard in the business because I am female

As a female who is one of the few relatively senior females ever in my department

I felt told to shut up a man has spoken , recognise a man is here

It's so humiliating to feel that way - but I do

See I have never been upset when someone has thought I was male

Actually rather like it because I know i won't be treated any differently to other men

Which trust me I have often been

( my name is apparently ambiguous in sone cultures )

💀 Goofy ahhh mfer

I told my boss that if I am forced to put pronouns in my email signature I will also put my star sign, my favourite football team and my ethnic background (it's a bit complicated).
Luckily he is very switched on about it as is our office legal team - we have had communication from senior management to say it is genuinely up to you. I privately judge any colleague who does it, particularly the dingbats who have a weblink entitled "and this is why it's important".

Does someone not knowing your sex in a work context cause any problems? Do people treat you any differently? If they do, or if someone is discombobulated when they find you're a woman - that may say something about them, it may give them pause for thought about their own biases and assumptions.

"I honestly don't see how knowing if someone is a man or woman when you can't see them to work it out is causing problems for you."

The insidious spread of gender identity ideology is a problem for every woman. This is the gateway to it. Normalising forced speech and thinking about something so toxic is not good for anyone. I also have a male type name. I don't give a shit if people mis-sex me now and then. I'd rather they did, quickly correct them and get on with my work than be forced to accept that a person with a penis is a woman.

I agree with others. Having had to fight to be heard over male peers, I find it counter intuitive to announce and make any reference to being female in a signature block.

I have no problems at all be missexed by email.

And I don’t believe that the world has moved on to not discriminating against female people in the work place. It was only a couple of years ago the organisation representing veterinarians did that experiment with otherwise identical male vs female cvs.

Needless to say the males got the interviews more often and the would be hiring vets admitted they would have paid the fictitious males more.

Maybe I have just been in the workplace for far too long to think that ‘pronouns’ are good and inclusive in the workplace. Yeah. Right. Inclusive for who again?

Most of the women, who write about having an ambiguous name

My name is deliberately gender neutral because men are paid more than women in my industry, and tend to get more jobs (I'm self-employed). Like fuck am I putting my pronouns on to remind people to pay me less.

That said, I think 90% of people who do it at work do it to a) fit in with a prevailing culture, especially on sites like LinkedIn and b) because the D&I lead asked them to, so why wouldn't you?

Urghh

Who would feel confident doing business with a company who had a sanctimonious "this is why it is important" link at the bottom?

That would have me searching for a new company because I'd think it was representative of the entire place.

We haven't been told we should do it. I won't be doing it if they ever do. I have not often been misgendered at work, but when I have been, I assume it's only working in my favour and tells me a lot about the person getting it wrong. I'm the only woman in a the department - I don't need to bring attention to that except when it suits me.

It's a lot more annoying than being called "sir" when I've been assumed to be a secretary rather than a techie, or when someone apologises to me (and only me) for swearing (in case it offends my delicate womanly ears - I have male colleagues who are far more likely to get upset at such unprofessional use of words.) I'll start stating my pronouns when they've got rid of the everyday sexism.

How odd that my post was cut. I’ll try that again.

Most of women, who write on here about having an ambiguous, see it as an advantage - or at least that is my impression from similar threads. There was an experiment done a few years ago, where two m/f colleagues signed off as the other on emails. The male colleague, who couldn’t understand why his female counterpart took so long to complete her work, was surprised he was suddenly questioned on everything he said and the woman instantly believed. Perhaps someone has bookmarked that blog and could post it?

would much rather 'debate' people's lives.

Too damn fucking right I will ‘debate’ people’s lives when there is a conflict in how to accommodate two groups needs.

There is no kindness in allowing a person in one group to have their needs prioritised over another person in a different group who also needs protection. Better solutions need to be found instead.

It is foolish to believe that no discussion is needed to find those solutions. I am deeply suspicious of people who frame those discussions as people seeking solutions as being someone who ’would much rather 'debate' people's lives’.

Sounds like someone entrenched and not prepared to find a solution when those words are used.

Exactly who benefits from that?

Last week, in the wake of the coerced outing of a young actor from the TV series Heartstopper, the Guardian itself came out against coerced outings, with a piece concluding "Nobody’s sexuality or gender identity needs to be offered up for other people’s consumption – no, not even a celebrity’s". Maybe you could forward it to your workplace next time they try to make you do it.

I’m NHS and noticing it a lot more.
I’ve already decided what my very polite response will be if asked to include mine (but tbh I think it is unlikely). I will refuse and give these reasons.

firstly I am going to say that I am ‘worried’ about people who might be trans or non-binary but have not yet fully disclosed this to everyone. Making them use pronouns kind of forces the issue and they may not be ready which is unkind to them.

secondly I am going to say that I am worried that having been made to disclose one of my protected characteristics, will there be an expectation that I have to disclose others such as my religion or sexuality? As I am entitled to keep these details private, why is my ‘gender’ (sex) different? I would stress that this makes me anxious.

I’d also say that I really and truly don’t mind what pronoun people use for me or if they really need an answer please call me by my first name or job title as I really don’t mind. I’ve only even heard my name used for females.