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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Identity vs Health and Safety

48 replies

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 08/11/2022 13:43

Does anyone know what the legal position is when gender identity collides with health and safety sex restrictions?

DH is currently doing diversity training and they're pushing the legal protections of gender identity hard but don't have an answer to what happens with regards to health and safety. He works in a sector with very strictly enforced regimes which are different for males and females.

He doesn't want to push for an answer as it's theoretical at the moment for him but I want to know.

Anyone know?

OP posts:
Magentax · 08/11/2022 16:34

16 seems too old as the lower limit - sorry I know not the point of your post!

StillWeRise · 08/11/2022 16:43

found it

StillWeRise · 08/11/2022 16:46

no, it was 12

so....some poor sod has to ask a 12 yr old boy if they identify as the sex registered at birth and if not might they be pregnant

good luck with that

Fladdermus · 08/11/2022 16:53

StillWeRise · 08/11/2022 16:32

interesting
I went for an x ray today and there was a notice (which I was struggling to read tbh) headed something like 'inclusive safety in medical imaging'
it stated that any person between the ages of I think 16 and 55 would be asked of they might be pregnant. It explained that this was because if a person was or might be pregnant this would affect their treatment.
Imagine being the poor person having to ask all the male patients if they are or might be pregnant.
As I fall outside the age range they didn't ask me.

I think I'd be more disturbed at the suggestion that I might be pregnant at 50. I need a lie down at the thought of that.

Magentax · 08/11/2022 17:42

so....some poor sod has to ask a 12 yr old boy if they identify as the sex registered at birth and if not might they be pregnant

The guidance you linked to doesn’t say that that I can find. You’d have to ask the 12 year old boy what sex he was registered at birth but not if he might be pregnant.

TheClogLady · 08/11/2022 19:26

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 08/11/2022 15:29

Interesting. Maybe DH is just trolling me. I shall ask further questions when he gets home.

I just had a poke around and I don’t think he’s trolling you it’s just more complicated that women have upper limit x and men have upper limit y.

From what I can see the absolute upper limit is the same fixed number for all but workers who are constantly exposed to radiation are subject to individualised risk assessments and those can result in an individualised upper limit.

I haven’t yet found out how the individualised limits are calculated but according to wikipededia age and sex are known factors for increased radiation sensitivity (with midlife people more at risk than older people and women more at risk than men) so I would imagine a ‘classified person’s’ risk assessment looks at age, sex, exact nature of that person’s job & their working hours (and pregnancy/maternity is factored in when relevant, including workers who disclose that they are trying to conceive)?

I’ve looked at loads of vaguely relevant bits and bobs and my battery is about to die so here’s a link and two screenshots to be going on with…

www.hse.gov.uk/radiation/ionising/doses/index.htm

Gender Identity vs Health and Safety
Gender Identity vs Health and Safety
BringBackCoffeeCreams · 08/11/2022 19:48

TheClogLady · 08/11/2022 19:26

I just had a poke around and I don’t think he’s trolling you it’s just more complicated that women have upper limit x and men have upper limit y.

From what I can see the absolute upper limit is the same fixed number for all but workers who are constantly exposed to radiation are subject to individualised risk assessments and those can result in an individualised upper limit.

I haven’t yet found out how the individualised limits are calculated but according to wikipededia age and sex are known factors for increased radiation sensitivity (with midlife people more at risk than older people and women more at risk than men) so I would imagine a ‘classified person’s’ risk assessment looks at age, sex, exact nature of that person’s job & their working hours (and pregnancy/maternity is factored in when relevant, including workers who disclose that they are trying to conceive)?

I’ve looked at loads of vaguely relevant bits and bobs and my battery is about to die so here’s a link and two screenshots to be going on with…

www.hse.gov.uk/radiation/ionising/doses/index.htm

I've asked him and I think it's a combination of what you said and him being a bit of a dinosaur. He says the law changed relatively recently to say dose limits are the same and admits he only discovered that when I asked him if he was trolling. So there's an element of fosilised, 'but we've always done it this way'. However, whatever the law may be now, industry is very loath to relax the standards because they don't want to open themselves up to potential lawsuits.

He says it's not about protecting women as such but the unborn foetus. A declared pregnancy goes straight onto a much, much tighter regime. But what about the unknown pregancy? That's what they scared of. He says that of all the sites he's visited, all over Europe, he doesn't know a single one which doesn't have a different regime for men and women.

Maybe they're all leaving themselves wide open to claims of discrimination.

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 08/11/2022 20:01

Interesting! i know that working with some chemicals comes with similar risks (and thus similar risk management policies).

It seems to me that any push to ‘equalise’ heavy industry risk assessments for men and women will end up being a ‘road to hell is paved with good intentions’ situation and the people with most to lose are women (and by association, any babies affected during their mum’s pregnancy)

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sievert

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg334.pdf

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ms33.htm

I agree with your DH (ha! All I’ve done is a Google search that backs his explanation up, I’m certainly no expert!) in that It looks like like the legal upper limit is the same for males and females but best practice in the workplace is much more individualised and takes sex (and age) into consideration.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/1075/schedule/3/made

How that pans out for trans people I do not know but it looks like whoever does the individual risk assessment has to consider some aspects of the employee’s medical history (although obvs that’s usually done with the expectation that the employee is being truthful and not omitting anything relevant)

Here’s the guidance for doctors working with ‘classified persons’,

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ms33.pdf

it’s dated 2017 so If I were your DH I would be asking higher-ups at his workplace how this week’s very interesting and informative Gender Diversity training fits with the established H&S protocols/risk assessments?

And pointing out that trans friendly legislation such as the Gender Recognition Act (which allows a trans person to retrospectively falsify the sex on their birth certificate) and trans friendly NHS rules (that allow for a completely new NHS record to be made with none of the pretransition stuff included) could inadvertently result in a less-than-accurate risk assessment and cause issues with legally mandated health monitoring…

… which could result in a transgender employee being physically harmed and the company being held legally liable for that harm.

Get out in front of it while it’s still theoretical?

Truthlikeness · 08/11/2022 20:16

My understanding is having a GRC doesn't exempt you from being treated as your biological sex uncertain situations and I can't imagine H&S law is one area that wouldn't apply. The bigger issue is that you're not allowed to ask if someone has a GRC, so in the event you didn't know they weren't their legal gender, you couldn't find out.

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 08/11/2022 20:21

Interesting! i know that working with some chemicals comes with similar risks (and thus similar risk management policies).

He mentioned one, DMF, which he says he thinks most labs who use it have a complete ban on females of reproductive age using it. Apparently it is easily absorbed through the skin and causes horrendous birth defects. It's just not worth the risk.

OP posts:
hallouminatus · 08/11/2022 20:24

It looks like there's been a change in the rules. The Ionising Radiation Regulations 1999 included the following paragraph in PART I
Classes of Persons to whom Dose Limits Apply

Women of reproductive capacity
5.
Without prejudice to paragraphs 1 and 3, the limit on equivalent dose for the abdomen of a women of reproductive capacity who is at work, being the equivalent dose from external radiation resulting from exposure to ionising radiation averaged throughout the abdomen, shall be 13 mSv in any consecutive period of three months.

The Ionising Radiation Regulations 2017 seems to omit that paragraph.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/3232/schedule/4/made

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/1075/schedule/3/made

Soontobe60 · 08/11/2022 20:32

FemaleAndLearning · 08/11/2022 14:10

I posed a similar theoretical question at work. If a woman who identified as a man had sudden stomach cramps would it be okay to ask if they may be pregnant, thinking of ectopic pregnancies, I didn't get an answer!

Some X-ray departments have been told to ask all adults if they could be pregnant, even if it’s bleedin’ obvious it’s a bloke!

SpiderToes · 09/11/2022 22:35

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TheClogLady · 09/11/2022 22:39

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Industry standard upper limits are way lower than the legal upper limit so if OPs DH is following the protocols set by his company (and there is no reason to think he isn’t) the legal change is irrelevant to his day to day working practice.

SpiderToes · 09/11/2022 22:49

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SpiderToes · 09/11/2022 22:50

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TheClogLady · 09/11/2022 23:08

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Why?

I spent ages looking at various paperwork on the HSE website and elsewhere last night and it all checked out as far as I could see.

Curious as to what you believe the garden path to be and why someone would be motivated into leading others up it?

SpiderToes · 09/11/2022 23:19

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Dangermouse99 · 10/11/2022 20:22

There appears to be some confusion about the law relating to ionising radiation. I hope the following clarifies some of the points raised in previous posts.

The relevant law is the Ionising Radiation Regulations (IRRs17) which came into force in 2017. These replaced the previous regulations (IRRs99) which came into force in 1999. Both these regulations make no distinction between the effective dose limits which apply to men and women i.e. they are same for men and women in both regulations. A lower dose limit applies to workers below the age of 18. The regulations also mean that any person below the age of 16 should not receive an occupational dose.

There is an additional legal requirement in Reg 9(1) for the operator to reduce doses as far as reasonably practicable below the legal dose limit. This is known as the ALARP principle.

There is a further legal requirement in Reg 9(4)for the operator to introduce Dose Constraints, where appropriate. Dose Constraints are set at below the legal limit and are often developed during the design and planning stage. They represent the level of dose which should not be exceeded in a well-managed workplace, and are one of the methods for complying with the ALARP principle. Dose Constraints are typically used in certain applications in the nuclear industry. As the OP's DH works in the nuclear industry, the lower dose levels that he is referring to are presumably the Dose Constraints.

It follows from the above that compliance IRRs17 does not represent a relaxation in safety standards and will not attract potential law suits as has been suggested in other posts.

It is not true that classified workers have individual dose limits, they have individual dose assessments i.e. assessments of the actual dose received.

It is not true that the lower legal dose limit which applies to pregnant women is missing from IRRs17; it is covered in Reg 9(6). There is also a legal requirement
under Reg 15(1)c for the employer to inform female workers (for example by training and instructions) about the risk of ionising radiation to the foetus, and the importance of informing the employer in writing as early as possible once a woman has discovered she is pregnant. This is so the employer can implement any necessary measures to reduced to any dose below the legal limit applying to pregnant women and to comply with the ALARP principle. Provided that the employer complies with the information requirements in Reg 15(1)c, I fail to see how the employer could be held responsible for any over-exposure which might arise from deliberate non-disclosure of pregnancy.

The disclosure of pregnancy by the woman is voluntary (not a legal requirement). Its worth pointing out that there is a requirement in the IRRs, and in health and safety law more generally, that an employee should cooperate with the employer in compliance with the law. The employer is not solely responsible for safe working practices; the employee has some responsibility for their own safety and the safety of others.

I hope this clarifies the law in this area.

AlisonDonut · 10/11/2022 20:29

When I worked in construction I wasn't even allowed to use the nuclear density machine which was used to measure the density of tarmac, due to being female iny 20s.

Dangermouse99 · 11/11/2022 01:01

Further to my previous post, I should have mentioned that the additional subsidiary dose limit in IRR99 for the abdomen of women of reproductive capacity has been removed. Experience showed that actual exposures were much lower due to the other provisions that continue to apply i.e the annual dose limit for employees, the ALARP requirement, and the requirement to restrict the dose during pregnancy. These are sufficient to protect the unborn child.

CloudybutMild · 11/11/2022 01:04

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 08/11/2022 13:59

Sorry, I used the wrong terminology. I meant someone who has legally transitioned.

He's a nuclear worker and is responsible for monitoring the radiation exposure of his staff. The limits for men and women is different and he would be in very serious trouble if he allowed someone to continue working once they reached their limit. But which limit?

Is this a trick question? The limits are based on sex, not gender identity, and sex is immutable, binary, and unarguable.

CloudybutMild · 11/11/2022 01:05

FemaleAndLearning · 08/11/2022 14:10

I posed a similar theoretical question at work. If a woman who identified as a man had sudden stomach cramps would it be okay to ask if they may be pregnant, thinking of ectopic pregnancies, I didn't get an answer!

I don’t think that anyone should be getting asked that at work.

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