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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Legal action against Eventbrite for unlawful discrimination

541 replies

Spero · 07/11/2022 21:43

On Oct 27 2022, Eventbrite pulled my book launch event for 'Transpositions - personal journeys into gender criticism'. This was a collection of stories from men and women about how they got involved in issues around sex and gender. Some of you may have contributed.

They told me that I was promoting 'violent and dangerous' content. I asked them to explain themselves. They haven't. So I am taking them to court for unlawful discrimination against my gender critical belief.

I wrote about it in the Critic here thecritic.co.uk/why-is-eventbrite-obstructing-my-book-launch/

I am hoping that some people may feel able to do a spot of gardening. I know its dark and miserable and not the best weather for gardening, but I think this could be quite an important piece of digging. There are some really important questions to ask about how private companies, based overseas are allowed to dictate what we think or say.

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IwantToRetire · 18/11/2022 19:39

@Sausagedoggy are you any where near Nottingham as it will be screened there, but they are not advertising venue as their listing on eventbrite was also pulled. See funzippy.com/event/nottingham-screening-of-adult-human-female-63645/i9t8LdqPKPS

When I said I thought it was strange that you hadn't go an email, but then the list of emails would be held by eventbrite so maybe WPUK couldn't access them?

Even if you aren't on facebook or twitter you can check posts for updates re events.

Spero · 18/11/2022 20:33

It's definitely happening. Will update you after conference on Monday

twitter.com/svphillimore/status/1593692736422612995?s=46&t=JsFnGZX7XYww1UX8Cts2GQ

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Sausagedoggy · 18/11/2022 21:09

@IwantToRetire I'm not near Nottingham I'm afraid and I think you might be right about the email lists. This has definitely fired me up though to stand up more and seek out events and opportunities to have my voice heard.

Datun · 18/11/2022 22:34

Spero · 18/11/2022 20:33

It's definitely happening. Will update you after conference on Monday

twitter.com/svphillimore/status/1593692736422612995?s=46&t=JsFnGZX7XYww1UX8Cts2GQ

Excellent.

Justme56 · 19/11/2022 13:33

Just a bit more info on Eventbrite’s T & C’s.

Legal action against Eventbrite for unlawful discrimination
Legal action against Eventbrite for unlawful discrimination
Legal action against Eventbrite for unlawful discrimination
KatMcBundleFace · 19/11/2022 13:42

@Spero

Have donated.

Can we buy tickets on the door of the launch event, or would you prefer only those who booked through event bright to turn up.

We can always wait for you all in the pub.

ZiriForEver · 19/11/2022 15:01

Justme56 · 19/11/2022 13:33

Just a bit more info on Eventbrite’s T & C’s.

The point it doesn't really matter what anyone writes into their T&C's. If you are a consumer and they operate in your country (domain, language, currency), they implicitly agree to follow your law.

Similarly it doesn't matter from where the company is, if it employes you in your country, they have to follow local law

In my country(EU) I don't bother reading T&C's in a business-consumer relationship, because the business just can't remove my legal rights. I just check whether they are generally reputable, as I don't want to have to fight for my rights, but they just can't T&C out of the law

Spero · 19/11/2022 20:37

KatMcBundleFace · 19/11/2022 13:42

@Spero

Have donated.

Can we buy tickets on the door of the launch event, or would you prefer only those who booked through event bright to turn up.

We can always wait for you all in the pub.

Sorry the event sold out - the room has only capacity for 80. I am sure some people won't turn up but sadly I won't know until the night. It's probably not worth coming unless you live close by, in case you can't get in - but we will have another event in Manchester in January.

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Discovereads · 19/11/2022 23:20

ZiriForEver · 19/11/2022 15:01

The point it doesn't really matter what anyone writes into their T&C's. If you are a consumer and they operate in your country (domain, language, currency), they implicitly agree to follow your law.

Similarly it doesn't matter from where the company is, if it employes you in your country, they have to follow local law

In my country(EU) I don't bother reading T&C's in a business-consumer relationship, because the business just can't remove my legal rights. I just check whether they are generally reputable, as I don't want to have to fight for my rights, but they just can't T&C out of the law

It’s not that simple.

Businesses can’t T&C out of law, but EU nation governments can by agreeing to EU Directives and other international agreements that specify applicable law.

Have you even read the EU electronic commerce directive that applies to you? I think you’d be surprised to learn about the country of origin principle within it for intra-EU e-commerce.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/11/2022 18:18

@DadJoke

My apologies for the late reply - real life intrudes but your points are worth answering.

If you are cisgender you are not transgender. If you accept that transgender people exist, then whatever you think of them, a word for people who aren't when you are discussing transgender people makes sense. Even if you think religion is bunk, atheist is still a useful word

Atheist is indeed a useful word in the context of religion. It means a person who stands outside the belief system entirely.

Cisgender however does not mean "someone who stands outside the gender belief system entirely", it means "someone whose gender aligns with their body sex" (or, let's be honest, it usually means "someone whose gender the observing genderist assumes aligns with their body sex").

In accepting "cis" therefore, one is implicitly accepting the reality of a gender that can align or not to body sex. It is a word that works within the belief system not standing outside it.

And that is just cis/trans "person". Taken in the usual form of cis/trans "women" it takes a step even deeper inside the gender belief system in that to use that pairing, even if one is ostensibily just accepting that trans people exist without accepting the genderist belief system, one is implicity accepting that the comparator for a trans woman is a "cis" woman rather than any other type of person.

If a person honestly wants to differentiate between trans people and those who do not identify as trans, "people who do not identify as trans" seems a reasonable phrase. It's a bit clunky, sure, but it follows the established convention in genderist language to avoid assuming gender (eg "people with a uterus", "people who menstruate" and so on).

They [gender critical people] have pretty much captured the MSM

You must read/view a very limited selection if that is what you are seeing.

Trans ideologists have literally written ISPO guidelines that require MSM publications to prioritise self-identified gender over natal sex even in the reporting of crimes that are overwhlemingly male-pattern not female-pattern*.
To claim therefore that MSM are "captured by gender critical people" seems.... disingenous.

Looking at the big names in the UK MSM:

The Times, Telegraph and Daily Mail report gender critical perspectives fairly, although since the last two are less motivated by the feminist aspect and more with general small-c conservatism, I would not describe them as especially "gender critical" .

The BBC, the FT, the Guardian, the Independant and the big social media groups all adhere to gender ideological concepts. When they do report gender-critical people and perspectives they frame it as as "bigotry", "transphobia" or "anti-trans". Aside from the Nolan podcasts I don't think I've seen a single clear explanation on the BBC or Guardian of why female people may feel that defining male people as women is detrimental to female voices, rights and autonomy.

Since clearly you feel the opposite, could you please provide some evidence that the MSM outlets in my second group are "captured" by gender critical people?

You aren't advocating for male cleaners to be removed from toilets, or male staff from prisons, even though your ostensbile reason for fearing transgender women is "because they are men"

Is that what you think my position is? Interesting. And wrong.

Speaking for myself:

I'm comfortable with male people in female spaces from time to time to do specific work under clear boundaries, as long as there is provision for female people who, for cultural or trauma reasons, cannot have males in intimate spaces, to ask those male people to leave (or in the case of prisons, to have female-only alternatives) and for that request to be understood and accepted.

I don't specifically fear individual transgender MTF people in female spaces any more than I fear any other male who chooses to belittle and ignore female boundaries. However I do fear/am more wary of all males, of any gender, who choose to belittle and ignore female boundaries than those who don't simply because these males have already proved they place their own perspective on, and what they want and need from, female people above what female believe may believe, want and need for themselves.

I also understand, from lived experience, the mental pressure that being female-bodied in a still male-dominiated society brings, how female-only spaces (physical and social) provide relief from that pressure, and how letting even one male person in changes that dynamic and reloads the mental weight. And I understand how our cultural history of sexism means male voices, priorities, experiences and biases have shaped public debate and therefore political priorities in ways that disempower women.

So because of that I do fear the social and political implications of a movement that will not accept that female people may have a right and a need to self-define as different to male, to speak openly and honestly about the challenges and reality of being female-bodied in our society, and to organise socially and poltically in our own interest to counteract those challenges. I believe that if the gender-ideologists are successful in their quest to define any and all ways of referring to physical or social differences between the sexes as "transphobic dog whistles", I am facing a future where I will face social bias, financial disempowerment and physical and sexual danger because I am female but no longer be able to publically speak about it to say it is still happening and demand society does better by us.

And it is that which brings this long post and initial derailment slap bang right back on topic.

.* Incidentally but worth saying: I consider these patterns to be fundamentally social not biological. I don;t think someting in a male's body makes it unavoidable that far more males than females commit sex crimes and violent crimes. On the contrary, I fully accept that in another place and time that male/female pattern may not exist, and I'd welcome any effort to move towards that. None of that changes the fact that here and now, in our society, this male pattern criminality does exist and to ignore that is to fail female people.

Bowednotbroken · 20/11/2022 19:04

Brilliant post Flirts! Thank you.

BellaAmorosa · 20/11/2022 19:50

Excellent post, @FlirtsWithRhinos
Very well thought out and expressed.

CentaureaCyanus · 20/11/2022 19:59

Brava FlirtsWithRhinos!

Spero · 20/11/2022 23:41

Very well said Flirts. And sobering to think that were you to attempt to host an Eventbrite gathering to make that speech, you would be removed as 'hateful' and 'dangerous'.

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Datun · 21/11/2022 05:54

Excellent FlirtsWithRhinos.

See DadJoke? That's what a grown up sounds like.

Spero · 21/11/2022 14:43

Update. Very productive meeting with legal team. I am confident I have a cause of action and it will be heard in the English courts. My solicitors will now send a letter before action and allow 28 days for a response, so I assume I won't hear anything further until the New Year now.

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Birdsweepsin · 21/11/2022 15:15

Good news Sarah, thanks for the update!

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Coyoacan · 22/11/2022 19:51

More power to your elbow, Sarah

LipbalmOrKnickers · 22/11/2022 20:58

Excellent news Sarah! And fabulous post Flirts.

Spero · 04/01/2023 16:41

A hopefully interesting update - got Eventbrite's response to my Data Subject Access Request. Some useful gems within!

sarahphillimore.substack.com/p/violent-extremism-and-hateful-content?sd=pf

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Discovereads · 04/01/2023 17:01

Spero · 04/01/2023 16:41

A hopefully interesting update - got Eventbrite's response to my Data Subject Access Request. Some useful gems within!

sarahphillimore.substack.com/p/violent-extremism-and-hateful-content?sd=pf

Thank you for the update.

As I suspected and posted in this thread, the basis for the deletion hinges on the T&Cs:
The event creator——gender critical ideology and social media
post/videos meets our definition of "disparagement" within our hate speech policy,

I do recall saying they only have to show disparagement not full on hate speech according to the T&Cs to then refuse service. I suppose you’d have to show that this is unenforceable and that depends on which rule of law applies…U.K. or State of California in regards to whether illegal discrimination happened.

I don’t see a need to rehash the discussion already had on that, suffice to say it’s ultimately up to the courts.

Did you file the suit yet? I recall you saying your legal counsel said they could file in a U.K. court, may I ask which one? Have you had any other hopeful news on this? A lot of money has been donated for the legal costs so I do hope it’s been enough to start the process.

Discovereads · 04/01/2023 17:03

Sorry, meant to add screen shot of the bit from your link so it’s easier to find what I quoted.

Legal action against Eventbrite for unlawful discrimination
BoreOfWhabylon · 04/01/2023 17:07

Happy New Year @Spero

Very interesting indeed!

Spero · 04/01/2023 18:30

Letter before action not yet sent. Will need to give them 28 days to reply. Still considering what is best route. Their T and Cs may say 'disparagement' but the internal comms are mainly about 'hate' which I find interesting.

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