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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you ever wonder, what else have I been horribly wrong on all this time?

278 replies

JaneorEleven · 04/11/2022 03:16

Do you ever wonder, what else have I been horribly wrong on all this time? If I was SO wrong on those that are GC, what else have I been wrong on?

All my life I’ve been solidly left leaning, and pretty much agreed with most points on the left. I’ve described myself as an old fashioned socialist, love the idea of the NHS, a safety net for lower income people and unemployed, social and economic equality, disability rights, rights for women all tied up with feminism including being pro-choice, LGB and the TQ etc rights, you name it, I supported it.

I had previously been very sympathetic to Trans issues, and had a friend who transitioned, and I supported this person as best I could. But after some time of researching and I guess educating myself for lack of a better expression, I did a complete uturn on this, and found myself agreeing with many wise GC women. It was a bell I couldn’t unring. And Mumsnet played a large part in this.

I’m British now living in the US, and find myself busy Terfing USA. I’ve listened to NPR for years, nodding along, but now almost daily, they have a segment that infuriates me with regards to Trans issues. Could be anything from “trans kids” not getting their meds, to prisons, to bathrooms, schools, and they support it all. Female reporters who I held in high esteem, interviewing and fawning over transwomen, platforming them and letting them hold court without challenging them.

These past few weeks, I’ve started to question myself. How could I have been so wrong on this? I thought GC peeps, or Terfs, were full of hate and lacked patience and understanding.

Which leads me to ask, on what else have I been so badly wrong? Anyone else think like this? Now I don’t think I’m a closet right winger, but is it possible I’ve allowed the left to lead me up the garden path on other issues too?

OP posts:
EdithStourton · 06/11/2022 11:39

princessleah1 · 06/11/2022 10:43

The biggest eye opener for me was noticing so called charities that are in fact lobby groups whose main function is to keep themselves afloat. They generate research that is not research, just collection of individual opinion. I no longer trust research I read about in the media and have to find the source before I'll accept it. It is shameful so many organisations are so disingenuous. I have also come to the conclusion that public money should go to public institutions where there can be better accountability, not to charities.

Oh, yes, that too.

I recently stopped my regular donations to two charities because I was so sick of them using their power and reach to argue for outcomes that are not supported by the science in the way that they claim they are. (I'm in the habit of actually reading the science, and either it doesn't show what they claim it does, or the experiment was poorly set up, or there are other, equally credible, papers that say the opposite.)

For anybody who wants to understand how to read science critically, 'Science Fictions' by Stuart Ritchie is a brilliant read.

spaceshiptrain · 06/11/2022 11:58

I'd start with socialism to be honest. (I've been there myself)

But honestly we're all learning. Of course we are going to be wrong on things. Life is complex.

Just keep learning and being willing to question your own beliefs. Something I do is any new subject I always read the argument the other side of my initial thought process before I read affirming stuff. I find this a good way to ensure you see things a bit more balanced, but bias will always come into play.

I think on stuff as well, just giving myself time to mull thing over and that always includes massive amounts of internal dialogue, full on conversations and then those conversations start happening in my dreams too.

I've read a lot of Noam Chomsky in my time but I also listen to political commentators on both sides, and debates. Then time to process is key.

EndlessTea · 06/11/2022 12:15

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 06/11/2022 10:43

@EndlessTea Thank you for linking to that video about grooming gangs. I really didn't understand the reach or the power of the gangs, or the sheer level of violence, from what I'd read in the press I'd dismissed it as mainly about vulnerable girls making poor decisions and men taking advantage of that. And there was an element of that but this video shows so much more. And then the denial and fear of facing the issue from the police, and the political fallout and denial from intersectional feminists. Wow.

I guess I am learning how complicated this is and how careful we have to be about accepting political ideologies wholesale and especially from elsewhere like the US. And how divisive this is among women. There might not be the same structure of grooming gangs as such but black girls can be exploited or just disappear and I don't know if it's changed but from my youth I do remember a kind of racist "oh well what can you expect" attitude to it.

I guess I don't see it so much as "what else have I been wrong about" as "what else have I been burying my head in the sand about".

I don't see it so much as "what else have I been wrong about" as "what else have I been burying my head in the sand about".

This is what it is all to me. Wilfully burying my head in the sand in order to be able to think like a lefty. The truth about the motivations and beliefs of the gangs is utterly mind-blowing if you have always been thinking ‘there’s no such thing as racism against white people’, ‘people only fear what they don’t understand therefore all fears expressed must be born of ignorance’, ‘islamophobia is more dangerous than Islamic extremism’, even worse, assuming someone is racist if they don’t dutifully bury their heads too.

Obviously, you don’t want it to tip the other way, but the dangerous religious and racially motivated hatred which has been allowed to flourish, half a million girls violently degraded, exploited and abused, all the terrorist cells around the country- it seems reasonable to argue we should pull our heads out for a tick, even if there is a risk of increasing islamophobia, although I’m sure there must be appropriate measures to minimise that risk.

TheClogLady · 06/11/2022 12:48

BloodAndFire · 04/11/2022 08:37

I hope that some of you who have possibly bought into the absolute demonisation of Israel as the world's only Jewish country, and accepted the Guardian narrative without question, might also apply something similar to that.

I think I’ve always been very hesitant to consider Israel/Palestine as a Goodies/Baddies situation so no big changes on that for me but I have become much more aware of how many people around me are willing to reduce it to that. The trans debate has encouraged me to read and listen non-left-approved media, and that’s taken the shape of paying attention to some of the outspoken women of the last 30-40 years who have been smeared, demonised and ostracised. The obvious one being Germaine Greer, but I’ve also found myself admiring Lionel Shriver, and, most relevant to your comment Melanie Phillips.

I don’t think I’ve personally changed my mind on much, I still believe in economic left wing policies such as free at the point of use medical care and a strong welfare safety net. Quality education should be available to all and higher education affordable to those who will truly make use of it (not just an expensive box tick to signal social status, but the beginning of a specialist job or arts vocation).

I’ve come to understand myself as ‘Blue Labour’, a Labour that perhaps doesn’t exist any more. one that cared about communities (based on current shared geography, rather than family heritage or immigration status) about wages that worked for families (families made up of single parents or same sex parents or grandparent guardians, not just the ideal hetero cookie cutter, picket fence family) one that understood that we don’t all live in urban, cosmopolitan, environments and that what most children need to thrive is secure housing, fresh air, a little bit of outside space, a school that sees them as both an individual and a part of a team and a guardian (or two) who isn’t working so hard to keep head above water that the child is left alone absorbing all the fears of adults and bills and bailiffs.

Somehow the material needs of people, of families has been lost in a sea of IDPOL - in my lifetime I think we’d slowly, gradually, started to do a pretty good job of working out how to get along with neighbours who looked a bit different and had different customs, and how to ensure the vulnerable aren’t left behind (and by vulnerable, I mean the truly vulnerable, newborn babies, the under 5s, children in the looked after system or at risk of becoming so in future, the mobility impaired, the cognitively impaired, seriously and terminally Ill people, including those with profound mental illness and very elderly people towards the end of their lives) and we understood that all those vulnerabilities could be worse for female people and for people from ethnic or religious minorities but we also understood that poverty made those vulnerabilities worse for all.

But we’ve imported some American ideas that have sidetracked us - yes racism exists, but Britain has a completely different pattern of immigration and a different demographic- by framing racism as purely a white supremacy over black people issue we miss all the other tensions and if we can’t see them, how can we resolve them?
What does American Critical Race Theory teach us about the current violent clashes between young British men of Pakistani descent and young British men of Indian descent taking place in the British Midlands?
What does it teach us about the violent attacks on elderly, male, Ultra Orthodox Jewish Londoners perpetrated by young, male, Black Londoners?

Absolutely fuck all! Yet younger Brits absorb all this American social justice from social media and assume they are enlightened.

I want everyone to live free from violence and everyone to have a reasonable standard of living.
I want families to be able to stay in one area and not be priced out by overseas property investors driving unwanted gentrification.
I want parents to be able to make a genuine choice between work and family life, not a choice that is driven by economic pressure in either direction (single parents on benefits can be just as trapped in their as a full time working couple with a scary mortgage).
I want everyone to be able to see a doctor when they are actually ill, not a month later.
I want people with disabilities to get the accommodations they need and not be overlooked by fashionable, imported Equality and Diversity trainers who seemingly care more about the colour of a person’s lanyard than they do about a desk that fits your wheelchair (and doesn’t constantly get adjusted by ‘hotdeskers’). Ditto mothers returning to the workplace needing a private place to express milk, ditto women of minority religious needing a female only space for adjusting their headwear.

I want kids to be allowed to be kids and not be introduced to niche adult sexual identities under the banner of ‘inclusiveness’ and that applies to equally to the Muslim rape gangs, to the Catholic Priest child sex abusers, to Rainbow Kinksters, to kiddy fiddling celebrity DJs, to OnlyFans/Stripping/‘sex work is work’/sex positivity and to hardcore porn online and paedophiles inside Roblox.

Yet great swathes of the current left nod along to women prisoners being locked in with peniswielding rapists, they say ‘family’ is a right wing dog whistle, that paedophiles are a conspiracy theory (despite the police here and abroad openly admitting that they can no longer keep up with the millions of images of child rape appearing online) and that anyone pushing back against any of this is motivated by ‘racism’ or some other ‘bigotry’.

It’s just a big fucking clusterfuck, we’ve got a shambolic conservative government and an opposition that is, to quote my late Nan, ‘about as much use as udders on a bull’

‘I didn’t leave the left, the left left me’

cartoon by Colin Wright:

Do you ever wonder, what else have I been horribly wrong on all this time?
Do you ever wonder, what else have I been horribly wrong on all this time?
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 06/11/2022 12:50

if you have always been thinking ‘there’s no such thing as racism against white people’

I have never believed that. I am from a racial/religious minority and I've seen it on all sides especially when it comes to sex.

it seems reasonable to argue we should pull our heads out for a tick, even if there is a risk of increasing islamophobia, although I’m sure there must be appropriate measures to minimise that risk.

For me one of those measures is to keep asserting "we're all women" and to mean it. The specific use of women and the degradation of women to express racial superiority cuts across all races. Seeing "our women" as special, valuable, needing protection, and "their women" as cheap, dirty, degraded, women that "our men" can legitimately use for their worst sexual behaviour. Whether it's in war, or grooming gangs, or trafficking, or slavery, or..... so many ways. And using the threat to "our women" as an excuse to attack all of "them".

We are still all women.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 06/11/2022 12:52

(Plus it's sexist as fuck in case I forgot to say that Grin)

Uxa · 06/11/2022 13:00

Does it never occur to you lot that there could be a middle ground, that there may be trans people or parents on here who struggle with this site that was once for mums but is now divisive and excluding.

Funnily enough, the trans people I know don't are able to think critically and are able to fall somewhere in the middle. The fact you feel the need to identify as a leftie or right wing suggests a bit more thinking is required.

Maybe, collectively, you could work with others to find a middle ground instead of stiring up hatred or one day you will have blood on your hands if you haven't already.

EndlessTea · 06/11/2022 13:03

Who are you addressing @Uxa ? The OP?

beastlyslumber · 06/11/2022 13:12

Does it never occur to you lot that there could be a middle ground

Have you even read the thread? That's precisely what people are talking about.

one day you will have blood on your hands if you haven't already.

What on earth? And you're accusing pp of being extreme?

MarshaMelrose · 06/11/2022 13:19

@Aintnosupermum
Elon Musk stayed very quiet about Heard and quietly supported her. He paid her legal bills. Not that I think Musk is a great guy, but for him to pay the legal bill, the abuse must have been real and obvious to others who had no skin in the game.

He paid part of her pledged donations from her divorce settlement that she didn't pay. I thought that was because he was shagging her. Her house insurance paid the defamation trial lawyers. In fact the insurance companies are in court suing each other and refusing to pay her damages.
What other legal fees did he pay?

ArabellaScott · 06/11/2022 13:26

Uxa · 06/11/2022 13:00

Does it never occur to you lot that there could be a middle ground, that there may be trans people or parents on here who struggle with this site that was once for mums but is now divisive and excluding.

Funnily enough, the trans people I know don't are able to think critically and are able to fall somewhere in the middle. The fact you feel the need to identify as a leftie or right wing suggests a bit more thinking is required.

Maybe, collectively, you could work with others to find a middle ground instead of stiring up hatred or one day you will have blood on your hands if you haven't already.

Did you post this on the wrong thread?

ArabellaScott · 06/11/2022 13:28

EdithStourton · 06/11/2022 11:39

Oh, yes, that too.

I recently stopped my regular donations to two charities because I was so sick of them using their power and reach to argue for outcomes that are not supported by the science in the way that they claim they are. (I'm in the habit of actually reading the science, and either it doesn't show what they claim it does, or the experiment was poorly set up, or there are other, equally credible, papers that say the opposite.)

For anybody who wants to understand how to read science critically, 'Science Fictions' by Stuart Ritchie is a brilliant read.

Thanks for the book rec!

I'd suggest 'Straw Dogs' by John Gray (while it may have its own flaws) is a very interesting book that challenged a lot of assumptions and accepted narratives - mostly about progressive politics.

Happylittlechicken · 06/11/2022 13:29

Uxa · 06/11/2022 13:00

Does it never occur to you lot that there could be a middle ground, that there may be trans people or parents on here who struggle with this site that was once for mums but is now divisive and excluding.

Funnily enough, the trans people I know don't are able to think critically and are able to fall somewhere in the middle. The fact you feel the need to identify as a leftie or right wing suggests a bit more thinking is required.

Maybe, collectively, you could work with others to find a middle ground instead of stiring up hatred or one day you will have blood on your hands if you haven't already.

So what middle ground are you suggesting @uxa? Tome a middle ground would be the smashing of gender stereotypes and all spaces which need to be segregated by sex? What about you?

BatCheeseIsFine · 06/11/2022 13:32

Uxa the whole thread is about questioning what you've been told to think, finding a middle ground on various difficult issues, and understanding nuances you perhaps didn't see before - particularly for those who've taken an automatically lefty view. You're demonstrating the exact extreme assumptions and unquestioning acceptance of dogma that the whole thread addresses.

*The fact you feel the need to identify as a leftie or right wing suggests a bit more thinking is required."

Hundreds os posts on this thread explore that exact thought process.

Maybe, collectively, you could work with others to find a middle ground instead of stiring up hatred or one day you will have blood on your hands if you haven't already.

Why, are you suggesting trans people die if they aren't always affirmed in everything they claim? Why would you think that? If you do think that, you need to do some thinking and perhaps some looking at actual evidence.

Can you show where hatred has been stirred up and how?

BatCheeseIsFine · 06/11/2022 13:34

As regards trans issues, I'd suggest a middle ground is trans people having the same rights as all other protected groups i.e. freedom from persecution and discrimination for being trans. But for other people, including women but also people of various religions where it's important, to have their rights too, i.e. recognition of and segregation by sex where it matters, such as in hospitals, prisons and sports. That's exactly what I do want.

EndlessTea · 06/11/2022 13:35

@AmaryllisNightAndDay your post made me have a little memory trawl and I can remember experiences were men made derogatory comments about white women, but they were always couched in terms of ‘I am not allowed to marry outside my religion’, and a time I was told I couldn’t use certain cups or plates, because I’m “not halal”, which I always took to be a strict religious thing. It was interesting that the woman to break the “non-halal” cups and plates thing was an African Black woman. She, defiantly, in full view took whatever crockery and cutlery she liked. She probably recognised she was experiencing racism and wasn’t having any of it. It went over my head because I didn’t think racism against white people was possible.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/11/2022 13:50

or one day you will have blood on your hands if you haven't already.

Could you explain this please? As far as I can see it could mean a number of things:

  1. You think gender critical feminists are responsible for suicide ideation in trans people some of whom may carry out their threats. This rhetoric is fairly common in domestic abuse, it's a tactic to control others by emotional blackmail.
  1. You think gender critical feminists will inspire violent action against trans people by right wing activists (men, statistically more violent). Women speaking about women's rights are not indirectly responsible for violent men's actions, and direct incitement to violence is already a crime.
  1. You think gender critical feminists will be attacked by violent men on the TRA side and it will be our fault, if only we had just shut up when told to. Look what you made us do.

None of these are valid reasons for women not to be able to speak up against things which affect them. What sort of "middle ground" are you thinking, and what sort of compromise would you ask the other side to make?

OldGardinia · 06/11/2022 14:17

"As regards trans issues, I'd suggest a middle ground is trans people having the same rights as all other protected groups i.e. freedom from persecution and discrimination for being trans." @BatCheeseIsFine

They have this, no? Are you allowed to not hire someone because they're trans?

I mean to me, I think there is a meaningful difference as trans is something you can choose to identify into. I reject entirely (and am backed up by studies on this) the archaic notion of someone having a "girls brain in a boy's body" as Mermaids put out. I think someone being trans is qualitatively different to skin colour, sexual orientation of sex. So you could have a more nuanced view on whether you were allowed to make decisions on it as it's more a choice of beliefs and self-presentation and attitudes. I mean if an employer chose not to hire someone who showed up wearing blackface to an interview, what is the actual difference if someone shows up wearing a wig and mini-skirt trying to look like some caricature of a woman? Other than social acceptability of one vs. the other which isn't a rule on how one personally regards it?

But anyway, I've over-complicated this. What rights do trans people require over anybody else?

TheClogLady · 06/11/2022 14:21

Why, are you suggesting trans people die if they aren't always affirmed in everything they claim?

This reminded me of Tinkerbell!

Unlike Tinkerbell, transitioned people will still exist even if other people do not believe the ‘born in the wrong body’ concept.

Just as Catholics still exist even if other people don’t believe in transubstantiation.

Just as Mormons still exist even if other people think Joseph Smith was a talented scam artist. Ditto Scientologists and L Ron Hubbard.

A meet-in-the-middle-world makes space for everyone to believe whatever they wish and expects no one else to pretend to have beliefs that they don’t hold.

Law cannot be belief-based in a multicultural society where beliefs are many and varied.

BedTaker · 06/11/2022 14:27

Maybe, collectively, you could work with others to find a middle ground instead of stiring up hatred or one day you will have blood on your hands if you haven't already.

What do you mean by this please?

Happylittlechicken · 06/11/2022 14:30

Is anyone else fed up of being told to #bekind, find compromise, budge up, work to find solutions? I used to be very be kind, find compromises etc, until I realised the TRA did not want compromise or third spaces or mutual respect. They wanted total and utter capitulation. There was no middle ground for them. It was all or nothing.

TheClogLady · 06/11/2022 14:42

Happylittlechicken · 06/11/2022 14:30

Is anyone else fed up of being told to #bekind, find compromise, budge up, work to find solutions? I used to be very be kind, find compromises etc, until I realised the TRA did not want compromise or third spaces or mutual respect. They wanted total and utter capitulation. There was no middle ground for them. It was all or nothing.

Yep.

’Educate yourself’ they said.

’Listen to trans people’ they said.

So I did both.

And after many months of self educating and listening and trying to make proper sense of it all…

I realised I was a terf.

And joined Mumsnet.

Happylittlechicken · 06/11/2022 14:43

Same @TheClogLady ’educate yourself’ did not go the way they thought it would….

BatCheeseIsFine · 06/11/2022 14:45

They have this, no? Are you allowed to not hire someone because they're trans?

Yes I think they basically do have this, so I think the middle ground I'm talking about is the normal rights they already have and share with others.

I mean to me, I think there is a meaningful difference as trans is something you can choose to identify into. I reject entirely (and am backed up by studies on this) the archaic notion of someone having a "girls brain in a boy's body" as Mermaids put out. I think someone being trans is qualitatively different to skin colour, sexual orientation of sex. So you could have a more nuanced view on whether you were allowed to make decisions on it as it's more a choice of beliefs and self-presentation and attitudes. I mean if an employer chose not to hire someone who showed up wearing blackface to an interview, what is the actual difference if someone shows up wearing a wig and mini-skirt trying to look like some caricature of a woman? Other than social acceptability of one vs. the other which isn't a rule on how one personally regards it?

I agree there is a very important factual difference as you describe, and I actually think that disliking or distrusting people who pretend to be something they're not, and demand that others agree, is understandable. So this is a complex issue from that POV.

EndlessTea · 06/11/2022 14:49

Happylittlechicken · 06/11/2022 14:30

Is anyone else fed up of being told to #bekind, find compromise, budge up, work to find solutions? I used to be very be kind, find compromises etc, until I realised the TRA did not want compromise or third spaces or mutual respect. They wanted total and utter capitulation. There was no middle ground for them. It was all or nothing.

Tbh - I am worn down by all the demands on my (women’s) attention and involvement.

Paying no attention to members of the male sex in our leisure time or private moments is a perfectly reasonable right for women.

We need to be able to get away from men and not deal with the significant minority’s violating obsessive interest in us and demand for constant bloody attention. It’s tedious and draining.

That’s the start. As for budge up, be kind, I think F off is required.