Has Keir reached the summit?

[CantSleepCountingSheep]

https://twitter.com/WhatTheTrans/status/1587452628912508935?s=20&t=8vr_h8eXM4YaIKzjk-i0Ug

Could this be a turning point for Labour?

Well, all these supposed gc (I refuse to use terf) labour mp's are fuck-all use now. I can't see any of them gaining a spine any time soon. So all the above is academic.

It's much better than what has come before. I think he is seeing some of the real issues, and maybe more realized this isn't something that will die down.

But the comment about respecting transwomen identities - he needs to spell out what that actually means - what does he mean by "modernizing"?

And I think the part about the LP having had that conversation is almost more serious. Clearly they have not, and clearly their party processes are fucked, in a very dangerous way that goes well beyond gender ideology. I don't think he has a sweet clue about that.

I respect how you feel mangy, but do you really think he's coming to some kind of realisation on this? I think I would be MORE worried if I felt that, as it would presume that he, and the LP, are utterly out of touch.

Yes, Keir understands us very well. He is just too fearty to actually say it, or do anything to help Rosie - or women in general, for that matter.

No faith in the man at all.

The replies are fascinating. Apparently “biological women” is a red flag: an offensive term. Yet “cis women” is not. Only men are allowed to decide how women may describe ourselves, it seems. This from
people who insist that using their birth name after they’ve chosen another is “literal violence.” 🤔

I think Starmer is going to struggle with the “trying to please everyone = please no one” thing. He thinks he’s being clever saying to us that he’ll protect women’s safe spaces, while also saying to the trans community that transwomen are women. But if he lets anyone identify into women’s safe spaces then they aren’t safe anymore, eh.

What Starmer - and many other politicians desperately need to do is (1) work out what he really believes about this topic, (2) communicate that clearly to the electorate and (3) engage with the electorate to persuade people that he’s right.

For example, I believe that healthy children should not be given life changing drugs and surgery, that women should be able to access intimate medical care, toilets, changing rooms and rape centres without being forced to accept men there, that men should not be allowed to compete in women’s sports categories, and that anal ‘sex’ and bdsm should not be promoted to schoolchildren as healthy choices. I believe that men, particularly sex offenders, should not be housed in women’s prisons. I believe that no one should be forced by their employer to state a political/ideological position with which they disagree (eg by requiring pronoun email signatures) and I believe that death threats and rape threats are not an acceptable response to political debate. I believe that the police should be neutral on politics and not arrest and interrogate gender-critical women on suspicion of tweeting, while failing to arrest or interview rapists. Others may disagree.

There’s an ancient Indian proverb, the moral of which roughly translates as “There is no point arguing with mad people.” I think of it often.

Starmer has actually stated clearly and unambiguously that Labour policy will be self-id. I suppose his advisers thought a few extremely vague statements would be enough to get some gullible people interpreting him as being pro women when he hasn't said anything of the sort, quite the opposite. It boils down to do you want Labour to win because of all the comforting (and entirely false) fairy tales you tell yourself that it's a nice party that will look after the Poor™️(spoiler: Reeves has already said several times they won't) or do you want women to exist and have legal rights?

(Disclaimer in case I seem like a bot or something - I certainly won't be voting Tory either, I'll be spoiling my ballot again)

Starmer is hopeless. I don't have any confidence in him. The least he could do was support Rosie Duffield in the face of all the threats against her, and he hasn't even done that.

Sure, he doesn't want to lose the support of either the TRA wing or the gender-critical wing of the party. We all recognise that's daft because you cannot please both sides - you have to pick a side. But more than that, why not forget about being pragmatic, and just do the morally right thing?

Well this should be instructive for the Labour Party.

GCs in Labour have a secret weapon in that they are not fanatical

That ^^

This behaviour is what will eventually make every party step away. It's only a matter of letting it roll and waiting.

KS is so wet, bits of him are dripping down both sides of the fence.

Waiting until when though? Until after the next election? Me, I will wait until I've seen their next manifesto and not a second longer.

As for these secret agents and their highly sensitive talks - well I find cynicism an unattractive quality and I don't want to be that person so I will try and keep my thoughts on that to myself, although it'll probably mean I'll have to leave the thread.

@fromorbit
It sounds like you have some inside role within the party.
In which case please tell Labour they need to wake up and decide if what they want is to be in government or whether they want to carry on down the purity spiral. They can’t have both because the electorate don’t agree with the hard left policies. Fence sitting, I can see both sides rhetoric is not enough to persuade women like me (not party members but left of centre politics) to vote for them.

I abhor what is happening in our country under the government. I work in NHS and have a child in state school. I cannot see where more cuts to services are possible without breaking our state institutions. There is nothing left to cut.

But I will not sacrifice poor women, imprisoned women, women who have suffered rape or DV, women from religious groups that need single sex spaces by voting for a party that says men can be women if they say so and make life immeasurably worse for them.

Keir needs to grasp the nettle, risk losing the young Labour TRA contingent but recognise by doing so he will win back probably thousands of ordinary women voters and actually win an election. If he doesn’t come out strongly on this we won’t trust him not to go down the Self ID route and Labour will remain unelectable. We need it in black and white policy what he would if elected and he needs to do it now to capitalise on this shit show of a government.

I’ll believe he wants discussion when he speaks out in support of Rosie Duffield and her right to have that discussion.

@LizzieSiddal spot on. Presumably he's getting a sore arse from sitting on the fence. He's learning what happens if you dare to deviate from The Word judging by the TRA meltdown over his wishy-washy interview on MN.

@Faffertea , Kinnock and Smith managed to reposition Labour away from the worst excesses of cult behaviour. Blair ignored it almost completely. Let's see if he can.

Will he read it himself though? Is suspect a large part of the problem is that many MP's will have someone else give them the gist.

Absolutely - it's just weeks since Labour Women's Declaration were excluded from the party's annual conference.

twitter.com/ECTScotland/status/1587737257116581888

'The rejection of children's rights to determine their own futures has dangerous ramifications beyond LGBT+ issues.'
'For example it could involve rejecting the premise of the original Gillick decision - giving parental right to bar teenage children from being able to access contraception.'

Kinnock has a transgender grandchild, I believe.

Their idea of discussion is cornering people who haven't really thought about this before, blast them with Be Kind and This IS Just Like Section 28 and make sure they understand that question ls are bigotry.
Those days are gone. No Debate is Over. And they are giving the Tories one thing they can fight them with. Labour needs an overwhelming level of new support to form a government at the next election. This may well be the thing that keeps enough people away from them.
Open Goal for the Tories if he doesn't get a grip.

@ArabellaScott , yes, you are right. That is an observed female at birth adult not an AGP

He's still talking about reforming legislation in support of "trans rights" - which to me sounds like self ID / changes to GRA requirements

He needs to be asked to confirm selfID or not? Rather than the woolly "reform GRA" which is how Sturgeon's lot claim they have a mandate for their self ID bollocks.

I appreciate this is just some random Twitter account (end conversion therapy Scotland), but it has been retweeted by Patrick Harvie.

Politicians listen to this nonsense, and support it uncritically.