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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's Place UK: Filia event: the elephant ignored yet again

1000 replies

pattihews · 25/10/2022 10:22

I attended the WPUK event at Filia yesterday and came out feeling disturbed by what struck me as a very heavy-handed event designed to avoid talking about the elephant in the room. For what it's worth, I've voted Labour at every election since 1979. I imagine 90% of the audience had a similar track record.

Put briefly, we had 90 minutes of:
Feminism=socialism and if you're not a socialist you can't be a feminist and if you're not a feminist-socialist you're the enemy.
The right is sly and will lie and try to draw you in (illustrated with a video from the US about the right-wing origins of many apparently liberal groups, including the Heritage Foundation) and you must resist any temptation to get involved with them.
The way to do it is to join unions and change them from within, hold socialist women's salons to recruit and inform and get involved at grass roots level.

There were also regular warnings about racism, which seemed odd and extraneous because WPUK is all about gender ideology.

And then the penny dropped. Though her name was never mentioned, I suddenly realised that the whole tightly-managed event (no talking unless you're holding the microphone) was a warning not to fraternise with Posie Parker.

At lunchtime I encountered several other women, all of them furious about what they'd sat through. Furious in particular because of course the elephant in the room was the fact that the Labour Party, to which WPUK is loyal to death, is the biggest threat to women's rights in this country. And they'd used PP to deflect from that.

I'm not a Posie fan. Posie's clear she's not a feminist. She says things that make me cringe. I have doubts about her motivation and we wouldn't be friends in RL. But I went to one of her events when she came to my area and she can mobilise women the left will never reach and for that she's important and valuable. When I go canvassing for Labour I meet working-class as well as middle-class women who vote or have voted Conservative. They include aspirational minority ethnic women. They have their reasons, and some of them I can understand.

A woman I've never seen before and may not see again joined my table for lunch and explained why so many women were feeling really disturbed. These are TRA tactics.
The huge issue that concerns so many of us (should we vote Labour?) was avoided and we were instead lectured on how to be good socialists and feminists.

Was anyone else there? What did you make of it?

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christinarossetti39 · 26/10/2022 13:58

I'd rather not go back to KJK on this thread tbh.

She wasn't at Filia. She's not a feminist. Building a woman's movement isn't her agenda.

WPUK did a similar talk to your neighbour thing, in fact a few I think, during their slot last year. Also at some of their meetings.

It's very standard holding a workshop stuff.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 26/10/2022 13:59

Make your mind up - you're objecting to women being lectured to, at the same time as finding allowing women to talk to each other a sub-standard event.

WPUK lecture & women talk amongst themselves. Does the 'lecturer' ever hear any of the discussion via this model? I doubt it.

I find it interesting that my observation on what other women have described as their experience of the WPUK session triggers such a defensive response. Is anyone linked to or involved in WPUK capable of taking on criticism & reflecting? Does the description - of a controlled set up designed to avoid various elephants in the room - of how that felt to the women attending even register?

Or is the tribal part to blindly defend more important than listening?

I've sat through meetings where the narrative is controlled & women don't get listened to or are shut down. Engender did this while trying to control the narrative around GRA reform. What WPUK did, as described & experienced by women posting here, is not so far removed from that. That's my reason for posting, because I know how that feels & I understand how those posting here to express that feel.

And no, I wouldn't pay money to attend an event to be lectured by women unwilling to listen. The 'break out' talking sessions mentioned by others as a way to connect & work together isn't what WPUK did here, from what's been described. The claim of 'reconciliation' from that is absurd.

Honestly, the siege mentality that comes with WPUK is what's most tiresome.

christinarossetti39 · 26/10/2022 14:03

Well, that's one interpretation and mine was completely different.

I sort of wish they had shut the Twitter gossip/KJK/ you tweet the daily mail/WDI are/aren't right wing stuff down tbh as it's so tedious.

Excellent panel though.

AutumnsCrow · 26/10/2022 14:25

YetAnotherSpartacus · 26/10/2022 12:49

There would be other silent women on sofas, hoping I wasn't going to talk to them. No one needs to build in an opportunity for women to talk at Filia.

The difference between this and 'the old days' is that it wasn't idle chat but an opportunity to give women an opportunity to talk in a way that helped build the agenda and any conference outputs.

Often, groups had scribes and thoughts were fed back to the floor and debated. There were opportunities to see where there was consensus and dissent.

Usually, things ended in the pub :)

Yes, the 'critique - revision - theory building' model of developing a pluralist movement, with all voices involved from the get-go.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 26/10/2022 14:32

Yes. It wasn’t perfect for obvious reasons but it felt better than the talking heads version.

christinarossetti39 · 26/10/2022 18:11

Yeah. The WPUK women come from this sort of background as well. Difficult to squeeze this into 1.5 hours as well as providing content for a 'workshop'.

I wonder if they were hoping for a richer contribution from the audience? I certainly was.

LangClegsInSpace · 26/10/2022 20:47

TinselAngel · 25/10/2022 21:22

I wondered if this was because these contributions came from WDI supporters who had organised their own 'fringe' event away from Filia the day before.
Unfortunately for any conspiracy theorists, I was at the WDI fringe event and can confirm that it was not about plotting what to say at the WPUK session.

Isn't it brilliant that Filia is now big enough to generate fringe events?

I'd love to hear more about the WDI event, I watched this earlier -

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 26/10/2022 21:54

I wonder if they were hoping for a richer contribution from the audience? I certainly was.

I'd love to hear more about this.

christinarossetti39 · 26/10/2022 22:24

More of the type of contributions that Jeni Harvey and the woman from Wales made - what women are facing irl and what we can do to organise.

Less of rehashing Twitter arguments, less or no mention of KJK, more engagement with what the panel were speaking about - lessons to be learnt from the 2nd wave, the scary rise of the religious right, the importance for some women of staying put in their union despite the difficulties to influence from the inside, the experience of working class, single mothers under a Tory govt, the gains that women collectivising have made in Brighton, how we got together to support other women held at Calais etc etc.

Desiderio · 27/10/2022 00:58

Surely having Katherine Acosta there and looking at the issue of the right or far right or religious right co opting women's rights movement speaks of criticism of what's happening in America more than the UK. And the danger of doing so.

The religious right in the US are hugely powerful and very anti abortion and pro women serving men and homophobic. That's why there's concern over Wolf's banding with ADF and Heritage Foundation (right wing christian orgs). Which is why Kara Dansky - head of Wolf would have been there responding.

Of course this issue has also been raised in the UK via KJK being interviewed by Tucker Carlson, Carl Benjamen (far right misogynist) and having Hearts of Oak (far right Tommy Robinson affiliated group) turn up at her rally and her subsequently implying she'd work with them and anyone as long as they are against child transition.

But I'd say this is far less hand in glove than the American GC orgs which from reading about the session it seems more focussed on. The message that it doesn't really help to work with racists who are against women and gay rights doesn't seem that contentious. It's like hiring mercenaries - who are just as likely to shaft you as the enemy.

Re politics in general - I went to a session on GC fight in the political parties. There were Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, Green and Conservative women all working together for women's rights which is great. I think we need to recognise that Tories are not the same as the far right. WP are obvs on the socialist side and see feminism and socialism as intertwined but they are not against cross party working so far as I can see. It's only the far right/religious right they draw the line at.

The fact that all the lefty parties have been rubbish on women's rights re gender stuff isn't to my mind a reason to desert them. As Joanna Cherry said - whatever you do stay in the left wing parties and fight - leaving does nothing but cede victory to TRAs. She said this was her cautionary tale from the SNP- which is why it's so bad in Scotland because GC people resigned.

The Tories are most pro sex based rights it seems so surely the left is exactly where we need to concentrate our efforts especially as Labour look set to win the next election. And despite Kiers public nonsense there has been progress in Labour - there are now out GC MPs and councillors and Labour Women's Declaration managed to get keeping single sex exemptions of the manifesto. So progress has been made.

increasingly KJKs stance is anti left and accusing WP of failure due to Labours policy. But how does going to rallies at speakers corner have any effect on parties policy? KJK may indeed be reaching more women which is great but those women don't create policy or law. It's lobbying powerful people in government and legal challenges which actually change things.

You can have a million people march on the streets in protest and it can do sweet fa. How does American GC women working with the religious right help change Democratic senators minds? How does welcoming Hearts of Oak change Labour MPs minds? If anything it has the opposite effect

pattihews · 27/10/2022 01:08

christinarossetti39 · 26/10/2022 22:24

More of the type of contributions that Jeni Harvey and the woman from Wales made - what women are facing irl and what we can do to organise.

Less of rehashing Twitter arguments, less or no mention of KJK, more engagement with what the panel were speaking about - lessons to be learnt from the 2nd wave, the scary rise of the religious right, the importance for some women of staying put in their union despite the difficulties to influence from the inside, the experience of working class, single mothers under a Tory govt, the gains that women collectivising have made in Brighton, how we got together to support other women held at Calais etc etc.

We were clearly the wrong sort of audience, weren't we?

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Desiderio · 27/10/2022 01:32

The right of all stripes already largely agree with us re child transition and men in women's sports. So why concentrate on preaching to the converted? It's not them we need to convince.

If the far right or religious right get into power well great they would stop those two things. But at what cost?

Worst case scenario- they ban abortion, make homosexuality illegal, remove women's employment rights, force women into domestic servitude to men and create a white ethno nationalist state where they treat non whites as second class citizens, deport them or worse.

Is that really an overall improvement for any women and girls?

It's like saying the house is on fire, the children are inside so we should work with anyone who will put out the fire including a mult national corporation who want to flood the village with everyone in it and turn it into a reservoir for their damn building project.

And then complaining about people pointing out the issues with that solution who think it would be preferable and a lot less risky to persuade the local fire brigade to do their job properly. And who are in the meantime doing their best with engineers and ordinary people with garden hoses and buckets with increasing success.

christinarossetti39 · 27/10/2022 08:24

pattihews you seem intent on putting words into my mouth, as well as discerning coded messages from the meeting as a whole. But you do you, as they say.

Desiderio staying in unions to work to change from inside is the right thing for some women, although I do understand why so many cannot stomach paying subs to an organisation than doesn't represent them and let's them down so badly.

Orgs like WPUK have been invaluable in providing support to those working to influence.

AutumnsCrow · 27/10/2022 08:38

If the far right or religious right get into power well great they would stop those two things. But at what cost?

Worst case scenario- they ban abortion, make homosexuality illegal, remove women's employment rights, force women into domestic servitude to men and create a white ethno nationalist state where they treat non whites as second class citizens, deport them or worse.

To be clear - do you mean the US here, or the UK?

Because these two countries are organised along very different lines.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 27/10/2022 09:10

The right of all stripes already largely agree with us re child transition and men in women's sports. So why concentrate on preaching to the converted? It's not them we need to convince.

Those are not the only issues.
The conservatives are likely to support the current law - that single sex services are legal, but not necessary.
And that some men can get a female birth certificate.

Just because labour is so far behind in women and children rights, doesnt mean that every thing is fine within the Conservative party.

What women and children need is this to be talked about - we need to be able to critise every party and every politically aligned group when they fail on women and children rights, and praise them when they support women and children.
We need to work with all politicians, to make every party see that its an issue for women.

ScreamingMeMe · 27/10/2022 09:20

christinarossetti39 · 26/10/2022 18:11

Yeah. The WPUK women come from this sort of background as well. Difficult to squeeze this into 1.5 hours as well as providing content for a 'workshop'.

I wonder if they were hoping for a richer contribution from the audience? I certainly was.

Maybe their presentation was somewhat lacking? If the whole audience isntgoving you what you want, maybe it's a you problem.

ScreamingMeMe · 27/10/2022 09:27

(You as in general you.)

LangClegsInSpace · 27/10/2022 09:30

pattihews · 27/10/2022 01:08

We were clearly the wrong sort of audience, weren't we?

Reminds me of when they lose elections and blame the voters.

ScreamingMeMe · 27/10/2022 09:31

Jeni Harvey is Gappy Tales, right? Maybe she should take her own advice because she's been banging on about KJK on twitter and in blog posts long after most of us were sick to death of it all.

We were clearly the wrong sort of audience, weren't we?

I'm sorry to say I'm still getting a whiff of snobbery from some WPUK members/supporters on this thread.

TheClogLady · 27/10/2022 09:47

It's like saying the house is on fire, the children are inside so we should work with anyone who will put out the fire including a mult national corporation who want to flood the village with everyone in it and turn it into a reservoir for their damn building project.

Except it’s not the house or village that we’re trying to save is it?

It’s the children

Salmakia · 27/10/2022 10:08

pattihews · 25/10/2022 17:40

I think the solidarity thing is where a lot of middle class centre/centre right women find themselves moved by Maya F for example. It could be them, their jobs.

And here we go again. I wish women would stop dividing us up by whatever class or income or political group they imagine others to be in.

Here we go again. Yes. Let's.

Age, Race, Class and Sex: Women Redefining Difference
Audre Lorde
Paper delivered at the Copeland Colloquium, Amerst College, April 1980 Reproduced in: Sister Outsider Crossing Press, California 1984

Much of Western European history conditions us to see human differences in simplistic opposition to each other: dominant/subordinate, good/bad, up/down, superior/inferior. In a society where the good is defined in terms of profit rather than in terms of human need, there must always be some group of people who, through systematized oppression, can be made to feel surplus, to occupy the place of the dehumanized inferior. Within this society, that group is made up of Black and Third World people, working-class people, older people, and women.

As a forty-nine-year-old Black lesbian feminist socialist mother of two, including one boy, and a member of an interracial couple, I usually find myself a part of some group defined as other, deviant, inferior, or just plain wrong. Traditionally, in american society, it is the members of oppressed, objectified groups who are expected to stretch out and bridge the gap between the actualities of our lives and the consciousness of our oppressor. For in order to survive, those of us for whom oppression is as American as apple pie have always had to be watchers, to become familiar with the language and manners of the oppressor, even sometimes adopting them for some illusion of protection. Whenever the need for some pretense of communication arises, those who profit from our oppression call upon us to share our knowledge with them. In other words, it is the responsibility of the oppressed to teach the oppressors their mistakes. I am responsible for educating teachers who dismiss my children's culture in school. Black and Third World people are expected to educate white people as to our humanity. Women are expected to educate men. Lesbians and gay men are expected to educate the heterosexual world. The oppressors maintain their position and evade responsibility for their own actions. There is a constant drain of energy which might be better used in redefining ourselves and devising realistic scenarios for altering the present and constructing the future.

Institutionalized rejection of difference is an absolute necessity in a profit economy which needs outsiders as surplus people. As members of such an economy, we have all been programmed to respond to the human differences between us with fear and loathing and to handle that difference in one of three ways: ignore it, and if that is not possible, copy it if we think it is dominant, or destroy it if we think it is subordinate. But we have no patterns for relating across our human differences as equals. As a result, those differences have been misnamed and misused in the service of separation and confusion.

Certainly there are very real differences between us of race, age, and sex. But it is not those differences between us that are separating us. It is rather our refusal to recognize those differences, and to examine the distortions which result from our misnaming them and their effects upon human behavior and expectation.

Racism, the belief in the inherent superiority of one race over all others and thereby the right to dominance. Sexism, the belief in the inherent superiority of one sex over the other and thereby the right to dominance. Ageism. Heterosexism. Elitism. Classism.

It is a lifetime pursuit for each one of us to extract these distortions from our living at the same time as we recognize, reclaim, and define those differences upon which they are imposed. For we have all been raised in a society where those distortions were endemic within our living. Too often, we pour the energy needed for recognizing and exploring difference into pretending those differences are insurmountable barriers, or that they do not exist at all. This results in a voluntary isolation, or false and treacherous connections. Either way, we do not develop tools for using human difference as a springboard for creative change within our lives. We speak not of human difference, but of human deviance.

Somewhere, on the edge of consciousness, there is what I call a mythical norm, which each one of us within our hearts knows "that is not me." In America, this norm is usually defined as white, thin, male, young, heterosexual, Christian, and financially secure. It is with this mythical norm that the trappings of power reside within this society. Those of us who stand outside that power often identify one way in which we are different, and we assume that to be the primary cause of all oppression, forgetting other distortions around difference, some of which we ourselves may be practising. By and large within the women's movement today, white women focus upon their oppression as women and ignore differences of race, sexual preference, class, and age. There is a pretense to a homogeneity of experience covered by the word sisterhood that does not in fact exist.

Unacknowledged class differences rob women of each others' energy and creative insight. Recently a women's magazine collective made the decision for one issue to print only prose, saying poetry was a less "rigorous" or "serious" art form. Yet even the form our creativity takes is often a class issue. Of all the art forms, poetry is the most economical. It is the one which is the most secret, which requires the least physical labor, the least material, and the one which can be done between shifts, in the hospital pantry, on the subway, and on scraps of surplus paper. Over the last few years, writing a novel on tight finances, I came to appreciate the enormous differences in the material demands between poetry and prose. As we reclaim our literature, poetry has been the major voice of poor, working class, and Colored women. A room of one's own may be a necessity for writing prose, but so are reams of paper, a typewriter, and plenty of time. The actual requirements to produce the visual arts also help determine, along class lines, whose art is whose. In this day of inflated prices for material, who are our sculptors, our painters, our photographers? When we speak of a broadly based women's culture, we need to be aware of the effect of class and economic differences on the supplies available for producing art.

As we move toward creating a society within which we can each flourish, ageism is another distortion of relationship which interferes without vision. By ignoring the past, we are encouraged to repeat its mistakes. The "generation gap" is an important social tool for any repressive society. If the younger members of a community view the older members as contemptible or suspect or excess, they will never be able to join hands and examine the living memories of the community, nor ask the all important question, "Why?" This gives rise to a historical amnesia that keeps us working to invent the wheel every time we have to go to the store for bread.

We find ourselves having to repeat and relearn the same old lessons over and over that our mothers did because we do not pass on what we have learned, or because we are unable to listen. For instance, how many times has this all been said before? For another, who would have believed that once again our daughters are allowing their bodies to be hampered and purgatoried by girdles and high heels and hobble skirts?

Ignoring the differences of race between women and the implications of those differences presents the most serious threat to the mobilization of women's joint power.

As white women ignore their built-in privilege of whiteness and define woman in terms of their own experience alone, then women of Color become "other," the outsider whose experience and tradition is too "alien" to comprehend. An example of this is the signal absence of the experience of women of Color as a resource for women's studies courses. The literature of women of Color is seldom included in women's literature courses and almost never in other literature courses, nor in women's studies as a whole. All too often, the excuse given is that the literatures of women of Color can only be taught by Colored women, or that they are too difficult to understand, or that classes cannot “get into” them because they come out of experiences that are “too different.” I have heard this argument presented by white women of otherwise quite clear intelligence, women who seem to have no trouble at all teaching and reviewing work that comes out of the vastly different experiences of Shakespeare, Moliere, Dostoyefsky, and Aristophanes. Surely there must be some other explanation.

This is a very complex question, but I believe one of the reasons white women have such difficulty reading Black women's work is because of their reluctance to see Black women as women and different from themselves. To examine Black women's literature effectively requires that we be seen as whole people in our actual complexities — as individuals, as women, as human — rather than as one of those problematic but familiar stereotypes provided in this society in place of genunine images of Black women. And I believe this holds true for the literatures of other women of Color who are not Black.

The literatures of all women of Color recreate the textures of our lives, and many white women are heavily invested in ignoring the real differences. For as long as any difference between us means one of us must be inferior, then the recognition of any difference must be fraught with guilt. To allow women of Color to step out of stereotypes is too guilt provoking, for it threatens the complacency of those women who view oppression only in terms of sex. Refusing to recognize difference makes it impossible to see the different problems and pitfalls facing us as women. Thus, in a patriarchal power system where whiteskin privilege is a major prop, the entrapments used to neutralize Black women and white women are not the same. For example, it is easy for Black women to be used by the power structure against Black men, not because they are men, but because they are Black. Therefore, for Black women, it is necessary at all times to separate the needs of the oppressor from our own legitimate conflicts within our communities. This same problem does not exist for white women. Black women and men have shared racist oppression and still share it, although in different ways. Out of that shared oppression we have developed joint defenses and joint vulnerabilities to each other that are not duplicated in the white community, with the exception of the relationship between Jewish women and Jewish men.

On the other hand, white women face the pitfall of being seduced into joining the oppressor under the pretense of sharing power. This possibility does not exist in the same way for women of Color. The tokenism that is sometimes extended to us is not an invitation to join power; our racial "otherness" is a visible reality that makes that quite clear. For white women there is a wider range of pretended choices and rewards for identifying with patriarchal power and its tools.

Today, with the defeat of ERA, the tightening economy, and increased conservatism, it is easier once again for white women to believe the dangerous fantasy that if you are good enough, pretty enough, sweet enough, quiet enough, teach the children to behave, hate the right people, and marry the right men, then you will be allowed to co-exist with patriarchy in relative peace, at least until a man needs your job or the neighborhood rapist happens along. And true, unless one lives and loves in the trenches it is difficult to remember that the war against dehumanization is ceaseless.

But Black women and our children know the fabric of our lives is stitched with violence and with hatred, that there is no rest. We do not deal with it only on the picket lines, or in dark midnight alleys, or in the places where we dare to verbalize our resistance. For us, increasingly, violence weaves through the daily tissues of our living — in the supermarket, in the classroom, in the elevator, in the clinic and the schoolyard, from the plumber, the baker, the saleswoman, the bus driver, the bank teller, the waitress who does not serve us.

Some problems we share as women, some we do not. You fear your children will grow up to join the patriarchy and testify against you, we fear our children will be dragged from a car and shot down in the street, and you will turn your backs upon the reasons they are dying.

The threat of difference has been no less blinding to people of Color. Those of us who are Black must see that the reality of our lives and our struggle does not make us immune to the errors of ignoring and misnaming difference. Within Black communities where racism is a living reality, differences among us often seem dangerous and suspect. The need for unity is often misnamed as a need for homogeneity, and a Black feminist vision mistaken for betrayal of our common interests as a people. Because of the continuous battle against racial erasure that Black women and Black men share, some Black women still refuse to recognize that we are also oppressed as women, and that sexual hostility against Black women is practiced not only by the white racist society, but implemented within our Black communities as well. It is a disease striking the heart of Black nationhood, and silence will not make it disappear. Exacerbated by racism and the pressures of powerlessness, violence against Black women and children often becomes a standard within our communities, one by which manliness can be measured. But these woman-hating acts are rarely discussed as crimes against Black women.

As a group, women of Color are the lowest paid wage earners in america. We are the primary targets of abortion and sterilization abuse, here and abroad. In certain parts of Africa, small girls are still being sewed shut between their legs to keep them docile and for men's pleasure. This is known as female circumcision, and it is not a cultural affair as the late Jomo Kenyatta insisted, it is a crime against Black women.

Black women's literature is full of the pain of frequent assault, not only by a racist patriarchy, but also by Black men. Yet the necessity for and history of shared battle have made us, Black women, particularly vulnerable to the false accusation that anti-sexist is anti-Black. Meanwhile, woman-hating as a recourse of the powerless is sapping strength from Black communities, and our very lives. Rape is on the increase, reported and unreported, and rape is not aggressive sexuality, it is sexualized aggression. As Kalamu ya Salaam, a Black male writer points out, "As long as male domination exists, rape will exist. Only women revolting and men made conscious of their responsibility to fight sexism can collectively stop rape."

Differences between ourselves as Black women are also being misnamed and used to separate us from one another. As a Black lesbian feminist comfortable with the many different ingredients of my identity, and a woman committed to racial and sexual freedom from oppression, I find I am constantly being encouraged to pluck out some one aspect of myself and present this as the meaningful whole, eclipsing or denying the other parts of self. But this is a destructive and fragmenting way to live. My fullest concentration of energy is available to me only when I integrate all the parts of who I am, openly, allowing power from particular sources of my living to flow back and forth freely through all my different selves, without the restrictions of externally imposed definition. Only then can I bring myself and my energies as a whole to the service of those strug gles which I embrace as part of my living.

A fear of lesbians, or of being accused of being a lesbian, has led many Black women into testifying against themselves. It has led some of us into destructive alliances, and others into despair and isolation. In the white women's communities, heterosexism is sometimes a result of identifying with the white patriarchy, a rejection of that interdependence between women-identified women which allows the self to be, rather than to be used in the service of men. Sometimes it reflects a die-hard belief in the protective coloration of heterosexual relationships, sometimes a self-hate which all women have to fight against, taught us from birth.

Although elements of these attitudes exist for all women, there are particular resonances of heterosexism and homophobia among Black women. Despite the fact that woman-bonding has a long and honorable history in the African and African american communities, and despite the knowledge and accomplishments of many strong and creative women-identified Black women in the political, social and cultural fields, heterosexual Black women often tend to ignore or discount the existence and work of Black lesbians. Part of this attitude has come from an understandable terror of Black male attack within the close confines of Black society, where the punishment for any female self-assertion is still to be accused of being a lesbian and therefore unworthy of the attention or support of the scarce Black male. But part of this need to misname and ignore Black lesbians comes from a very real fear that openly women-identified Black women who are no longer dependent upon men for their self-definition may well reorder our whole concept of social relationships.

Black women who once insisted that lesbianism was a white woman's problem now insist that Black lesbians are a threat to Black nationhood, are consorting with the enemy, are basically un-Black. These accusations, coming from the very women to whom we look for deep and real understanding, have served to keep many Black lesbians in hiding, caught between the racism of white women and the homophobia of their sisters. Often, their work has been ignored, trivialized, or misnamed, as with the work of Angelina Grimke, Alice Dunbar-Nelson, Lorraine Hansberry. Yet women-bonded women have always been some part of the power of Black communities, from our unmarried aunts to the amazons of Dahomey.

And it is certainly not Black lesbians who are assaulting women and raping children and grandmothers on the streets of our communities.

Across this country, as in Boston during the spring of 1979 following the unsolved murders of twelve Black women, Black lesbians are spearheading movements against violence against Black women.

What are the particular details within each of our lives that can be scrutinized and altered to help bring about change? How do we redefine difference for all women? It is not our differences which separate women, but our reluctance to recognize those differences and to deal effectively with the distortions which have resulted from the ignoring and misnaming of those differences.

As a tool of social control, women have been encouraged to recognize only one area of human difference as legitimate, those differences which exist between women and men. And we have learned to deal across those differences with the urgency of all oppressed subordinates. All of us have had to learn to live or work or coexist with men, from our fathers on. We have recognized and negotiated these differences, even when this recognition only continued the old dominant/subordinate mode of human relationship; where the oppressed must recognize the masters' difference in order to survive.

But our future survival is predicated upon our ability to relate within equality. As women, we must root out internalized patterns of oppression within ourselves if we are to move beyond the most superficial aspects of social change. Now we must recognize differences among women who are our equals, neither inferior nor superior, and devise ways to use each others' difference to enrich our visions and our joint struggles. The future of our earth may depend upon the ability of all women to identify and develop new definitions of power and new patterns of relating across difference. The old definitions have not served us, nor the earth that supports us. The old patterns, no matter how cleverly rearranged to imitate progress, still condemn us to cosmetically altered repetitions of the same old exchanges, the same old guilt, hatred, recrimination, lamentation, and suspicion.

For we have, built into all of us, old blueprints of expectation and response, old structures of oppression, and these must be altered at the same time as we alter the living conditions which are a result of those structures. For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house.

As Paulo Freire shows so well in The Pedagogy of the Oppressed, the true focus of revolutionary change is never merely the oppressive situations which we seek to escape, but that piece of the oppressor which is planted deep within each of us, and which knows only the oppressors' tactics, the oppressors' relationships.

Change means growth, and growth can be painful. But we sharpen self-definition by exposing the self in work and struggle together with those whom we define as different from ourselves, although sharing the same goals. For Black and white, old and young, lesbian and heterosexual women alike, this can mean new paths to our survival.

We have chosen each other
and the edge of each others battles
the war is the same
if we lose
someday women's blood will congeal
upon a dead planet
if we win
there is no telling
we seek beyond history
for a new and more possible meeting.

pattihews · 27/10/2022 10:30

I'm not getting this. I belong to several groups promoting women's rights, supporting women at home and abroad, and trying to counter the influence of gender ideology. Many of us are older 2nd-wavers bringing with us our experience of struggles of 40 and 50 years ago. We include black women, lesbian and bi women, women with disabilities, women from a other countries, cultures and religions. We're non-hierarchical. We are equals.

Why do you assume I'm/ we're white and middle class and have never read Audre Lorde?

OP posts:
Salmakia · 27/10/2022 10:37

38 years on from that speech and women are still being told to shut up about differences for the sake of feminist unity.

Interesting that women will take themselves from a panel where they can challenge face to face with integrity contributions they don't like, to an open conference floor with a 30 minutes break where they can one on one challenge face to face with integrity the woman/women who's words they took issue with but choose to do neither. And then come on Mumsnet to anonymously misrepresent women.

When called to check themselves go back to the default crap of shutting up about difference for unity.

Am seriously disgusted by the total absence of integrity and courage from this place and the women gossiping here.

I never come to the feminism boards and this is why. "The only real feminism happening on Mumsnet happens on the relationships boards". That adage is again proven true.

Salmakia · 27/10/2022 10:40

pattihews · 27/10/2022 10:30

I'm not getting this. I belong to several groups promoting women's rights, supporting women at home and abroad, and trying to counter the influence of gender ideology. Many of us are older 2nd-wavers bringing with us our experience of struggles of 40 and 50 years ago. We include black women, lesbian and bi women, women with disabilities, women from a other countries, cultures and religions. We're non-hierarchical. We are equals.

Why do you assume I'm/ we're white and middle class and have never read Audre Lorde?

You literally said "stop dividing us" by perceived class, income, group.

Also you replied before you had read my full post so yeah the assumption that you don't hear other women isn't unfair is it.

Maybe you've read some feminism. Maybe we all have. But maybe when a particular text of relevance is brought to a discussion we could all take the time to actually read it or indeed re-read it placing it into our current (very much unchanged) context. You won't. That's your choice.

pattihews · 27/10/2022 11:03

You literally said "stop dividing us" by perceived class, income, group.

Perceived being the important word there. One speaker at the event assumed that working-class women have to be poor and that anyone with money is of the right. You were making similar assumptions about others' colour, income, class etc.

I'm at work today, so not time to say more.

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