Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's Place UK: Filia event: the elephant ignored yet again

1000 replies

pattihews · 25/10/2022 10:22

I attended the WPUK event at Filia yesterday and came out feeling disturbed by what struck me as a very heavy-handed event designed to avoid talking about the elephant in the room. For what it's worth, I've voted Labour at every election since 1979. I imagine 90% of the audience had a similar track record.

Put briefly, we had 90 minutes of:
Feminism=socialism and if you're not a socialist you can't be a feminist and if you're not a feminist-socialist you're the enemy.
The right is sly and will lie and try to draw you in (illustrated with a video from the US about the right-wing origins of many apparently liberal groups, including the Heritage Foundation) and you must resist any temptation to get involved with them.
The way to do it is to join unions and change them from within, hold socialist women's salons to recruit and inform and get involved at grass roots level.

There were also regular warnings about racism, which seemed odd and extraneous because WPUK is all about gender ideology.

And then the penny dropped. Though her name was never mentioned, I suddenly realised that the whole tightly-managed event (no talking unless you're holding the microphone) was a warning not to fraternise with Posie Parker.

At lunchtime I encountered several other women, all of them furious about what they'd sat through. Furious in particular because of course the elephant in the room was the fact that the Labour Party, to which WPUK is loyal to death, is the biggest threat to women's rights in this country. And they'd used PP to deflect from that.

I'm not a Posie fan. Posie's clear she's not a feminist. She says things that make me cringe. I have doubts about her motivation and we wouldn't be friends in RL. But I went to one of her events when she came to my area and she can mobilise women the left will never reach and for that she's important and valuable. When I go canvassing for Labour I meet working-class as well as middle-class women who vote or have voted Conservative. They include aspirational minority ethnic women. They have their reasons, and some of them I can understand.

A woman I've never seen before and may not see again joined my table for lunch and explained why so many women were feeling really disturbed. These are TRA tactics.
The huge issue that concerns so many of us (should we vote Labour?) was avoided and we were instead lectured on how to be good socialists and feminists.

Was anyone else there? What did you make of it?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 28/10/2022 13:15

antelopevalley · 28/10/2022 13:10

@GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder Things kicked off before Venice Allan and some of those women gave a lot of support and money to Venice to support her work starting off.

Can you link to what happened before Venice's meeting? I've no doubt that things did happen, but in terms of exposure & sunlight, Venice's actions & work deserves way more recognition that it ever gets. Hers was the 1st meeting I ever attended & for me, her work was v v v important. You'd never know that now.

pattihews · 28/10/2022 13:16

Yes, I can remember David TC Davies rescuing that meeting and booking a room in the HoC and the irony of a right-wing Tory helping out the GC cause. I presume WPUK would have said no thanks to him, lest they be tainted.

OP posts:
RoyalCorgi · 28/10/2022 13:19

I can't help thinking that WPUK is now obsolete. Working from within the trades unions and Labour has got them nowhere.

For the past five years, WPUK has held numerous meetings all around the country, drawing crowds of hundreds of women. Don't underestimate the impact those meetings had in bringing women together to fight this cause.

WPUK have also had input into numerous government consultations:

womansplaceuk.org/category/resources/submissions-to-consultations/

They've also given evidence at tribunals of gender-critical women - for example, WPUK's co-founder, Judith Green, gave evidence at Allison Bailey's tribunal: www.thenational.wales/news/20104326.women-likely-support-gender-critical-beliefs-men-tribunal-hears/

This sort of stuff (writing consultation responses, preparing evidence for court cases) is painstaking, time-consuming and completely lacking in glamour. Most of the time it goes unrecognised. But it's valuable. It makes a difference.

RoyalCorgi · 28/10/2022 13:22

pattihews · 28/10/2022 13:16

Yes, I can remember David TC Davies rescuing that meeting and booking a room in the HoC and the irony of a right-wing Tory helping out the GC cause. I presume WPUK would have said no thanks to him, lest they be tainted.

A list of occasions when WPUK has met with, or asked to meet with, representatives of the Conservative government:

womansplaceuk.org/2018/12/19/wpuk-meetings-with-government/

Doesn't quite tally with the idea that WPUK fears being tainted, does it?

TinselAngel · 28/10/2022 13:23

And this kind of nonsense is why I never use the feminist boards on Mumsnet.
Maybe hang around for a bit and learn about all the important aspects of the movement which have started here.

TinselAngel · 28/10/2022 13:24

antelopevalley · 28/10/2022 13:10

@GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder Things kicked off before Venice Allan and some of those women gave a lot of support and money to Venice to support her work starting off.

The WPUK women gave lots of money to Venice, before WPUK existed?

TheClogLady · 28/10/2022 13:40

antelopevalley · 28/10/2022 13:10

@GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder Things kicked off before Venice Allan and some of those women gave a lot of support and money to Venice to support her work starting off.

Are you SURE that Venice was funded by left wing women? According to comments up thread left wing women are too skint to fund anyone, so all the GC funding must come from Tories!

(which is obviously nonsense, it’s just amusing to see the same argument used in two directions, but both in defence of WPUK, on a single thread)

ArabellaScott · 28/10/2022 13:40

RoyalCorgi · 28/10/2022 13:19

I can't help thinking that WPUK is now obsolete. Working from within the trades unions and Labour has got them nowhere.

For the past five years, WPUK has held numerous meetings all around the country, drawing crowds of hundreds of women. Don't underestimate the impact those meetings had in bringing women together to fight this cause.

WPUK have also had input into numerous government consultations:

womansplaceuk.org/category/resources/submissions-to-consultations/

They've also given evidence at tribunals of gender-critical women - for example, WPUK's co-founder, Judith Green, gave evidence at Allison Bailey's tribunal: www.thenational.wales/news/20104326.women-likely-support-gender-critical-beliefs-men-tribunal-hears/

This sort of stuff (writing consultation responses, preparing evidence for court cases) is painstaking, time-consuming and completely lacking in glamour. Most of the time it goes unrecognised. But it's valuable. It makes a difference.

Yes, WPUK does good work. We need everyone. I'd have thought the general category of 'women' was large enough to include those from all different corners of society, backgrounds, and approaches.

I also think the very basic idea of refraining from attacking other women would be a pretty minimal ask.

I've tried not to get involved in arguments, I think lots of women stay out of it partly because there's no time and partly because we need to unite to work against genderism.

But for anyone who's called women names - well. Those can be hurtful. I can now wear my 'domesticated zombie' name with pride but that's not really something I enjoyed hearing. And when hurtful labels are dished out, they don't encourage trust, which makes me less inclined to support.

I'm left feeling that us drudges are expected to forgive and forget while some women feel it beneath them to treat others with respect, to listen and even to apologise when errors are made. We all fuck up; it's human. Just some are more willing to examine our consciences and make reparations, it seems.

This sort of stuff (writing consultation responses, preparing evidence for court cases) is painstaking, time-consuming and completely lacking in glamour. Most of the time it goes unrecognised. But it's valuable. It makes a difference.

Bear in mind many of the women on this board have expended masses of time doing exactly these things, too. Researching, writing, sharing resources. Perhaps not from a professional standpoint, but offering what we can, as we can.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/10/2022 14:06

WPUK started in the aftermath of the 1st meeting Venice held, which was the one where Maria McLachlan was assaulted

Just for information that first meeting was organised by a group of about five left wing women, one of whom was Venice.

TinselAngel · 28/10/2022 14:11

Bear in mind many of the women on this board have expended masses of time doing exactly these things, too. Researching, writing, sharing resources. Perhaps not from a professional standpoint, but offering what we can, as we can.

This touches on what I think is the biggest problem in the GC movement. Ordinary women like the women of FWR are seen by the leading GC groups as a resource that can be tapped into, rather than as anything approaching equal partners. This attitude runs like a thread through the movement. Groups are happy to take our direct debits but don't canvass our opinions about what the money should be spent on. See Julie Bindel crowdfunding to take on Nottingham City Council, ignoring all the ordinary women saying she didn't need all that money to write a letter, and then predictably having lots of money left over when the council caved.

I was once told by a leading member of a leading GC group that I should spend less time doing what I was doing and more time writing letters to my MP to support their current campaign.

There is a divide between the leadership of GC groups and what I can only assume they see as the rank and file. If we express opinions that are country to our self identified leaders and their side kicks, we are dismissed. We're not good enough feminists.

TinselAngel · 28/10/2022 14:15

Pressed send to soon- should be "contrary" in the last paragraph.

I was also going to add that the enormous strides that this movement has made have to a large degree been made by ordinary women like those on FWR or in the WRN, doing all the grunt work and sometimes starting our own groups and campaigns. Much of this was done without the guidance of our self appointed leaders.

It's ordinary women what won this, by saying no. And there should be a greater appreciation of this.

ArabellaScott · 28/10/2022 14:19

Well, I'd say that we needed the women who spotted this first, articulated the problems, and were brave enough to stand up and campaign before the issues were clearly understood and/or discussed in the media. A couple of years ago there were NO media outlets given any airtime whatsoever to the issues. It's now regularly reported on.

I do think there's a need for all different types of women. Agitators, disruptors, whistleblowers, researchers, gruntworkers, peacemakers, academics, analysts, experts, 'ordinary' women, artists, writers, extroverts, introverts, historians, security, media, protestors, letter writers, etc

All of which hav edifferent approaches and maybe are always likely to clash on some things?

TinselAngel · 28/10/2022 14:21

Well, I'd say that we needed the women who spotted this first,
I'd suggest the women who spotted this first, were the women married to the men concerned.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/10/2022 14:25

Ordinary women like the women of FWR are seen by the leading GC groups as a resource that can be tapped into, rather than as anything approaching equal partners. This attitude runs like a thread through the movement.

This, definitely. It's a very high-handed attitude. Some are worse than others, but lots of people do it.

ArabellaScott · 28/10/2022 14:26

Well.

I'm wondering whether if, as we approach the brow of the mountain we fondly think of but can't name, we are all thinking we can all relax a bit and perhaps long buried slights and resentments will surface as we start to coast downhill.

Sort of how a child coming home from school to its safe place can safely vent, rage, and have a wee weep in the arms of its mum. 🙂

And then we can all make up! 😃

HenGab4 · 28/10/2022 14:48

well Said @pattihews

I was in that meeting too and most of the women who spoke at the end defended KJK.

I find WPUK very unpleasant. They are the snobs in all of this and do not welcome or represent me as a working class woman in any way. Some of there supporters are the same. If you’ve read Twitter over the last few weeks you’ll know who I mean.

we will lose this fight if they think they are leading it. Everyone has a place in it and we should leave each other be to do what we believe is right to win this.

MotherOfDottirs · 28/10/2022 21:32

The problem with WPUK is that the Labour Party just doesn’t seem to want to listen to them. Labour Women’s Declaration seems to have the ear of some Labour MPs and they and the MPs have been fearless in standing up for the truth. Shan’t be voting Labour unless I move to e.g., Canterbury or Gower

KatherineMAcosta · 29/10/2022 14:38

Hello, mumsnetters!

I made an account to respond to this post, as it bears little resemblance to my experience of the WPUK session at Filia, so I thought I’d offer an alternative perspective. The title of the event was “Betrayal by the left, dangers from the right and the need for an autonomous Women’s Liberation Movement.”
The first speaker, Pragna Patel, gave an overview of the broad political situation in which we find ourselves.

From the right: “Around the world, women are under intense and sustained attacks from ascendent fascist and authoritarian forces. These forces have become emboldened by the triumph of unbridled free-market capitalism and the widening socio-economic crisis that has deepened disparities in wealth and power. They have ushered in a politics of hatred, intolerance and violence that is driven by ‘fear of the other’ and holds sway as governments themselves become complicit in, if not drivers of new forms of terror and censorship.”
The “so-called left,” she said, is dominated by “identity politics” that “descends into a form of moral absolutism in which internal critique is suppressed.” (See her whole presentation here: )

I was asked to describe some of the anti-feminist Christian nationalist organizations with whom some of our radical feminists have been collaborating, which I did through the video clip. All of these organizations were explicitly formed to roll back feminist gains of the 1960s and 1970s. Some are branching out into the UK, and WoLF and WDI USA also have UK ties, so WPUK thought it would be relevant to a UK audience. (See video of my presentation here: )

Philipa Harvey provided a much-needed discussion of women in the labour movement and how simply abandoning unions when they prove sexist, rather than fighting for change from within, dishonors the women who came before us and organized their own unions.

Working class single mum Ali Ceesay spoke about right wing politics affects women economically. “Every aspect of my life as a single mother, as a survivor, as a campaigner, is made smaller and more difficult because of the policies of a right-wing government. This is what I mean when I say I am on the left, the differences between right and left matter.”

Both Ali and Pragna spoke about the harms for women of colour of right wing politics, with Pragna saying, “If a ‘feminist’ organisation is working with the right, I am left behind. Black women are left behind.”

The session was structured to allot about half of the time to audience questions/statements (after the two 5min discussions among women in the audience.) Presenters were asked to withhold their comments until the end, when we were each allowed 3 minutes to respond to the audience and sum up our presentations. However, as someone stated above, only one person in the audience responded directly to the presentations. Jeni Harvey asked Ali about grass roots organizing.

The first person called on was Jo Brew and she gave quite a lengthy speech. Kara Dansky and Kate Graham also were allowed plenty of time to speak.
I really don’t understand why here and on twitter, some women are claiming the whole thing was a dig a KJK. SFW, the speakers corners events, and KJK were not mentioned at all. Someone claimed the discussion of Heritage Foundation was an indirect clue that this was about KJK. But my video was about 4 Council for National Policy organizations with whom some radical feminists have worked, and Wolf accepted funding from one of them, Alliance Defending Freedom, back in 2015, four years before KJK attended WoLF’s 2019 event at Heritage foundation. Not everything is about KJK!

When the rest of the videos and transcripts are published, I hope thoughtful mumsnetters will view and read them and make up their own minds. Peace out! KMA

KatherineMAcosta · 29/10/2022 14:43

"holding open mic events where any woman can speak, or holding tightly controlled events where women get to talk to their neighbour for 5 minutes" - that's not the only opportunity the audience had to speak. Nearly half the session time was given over to audience questions and comments, with Jo Brew, Kara Dansky, and Kate Graham allowed unlimited time to speak.

TheClogLady · 29/10/2022 14:46

’we weren’t criticising SFW we were criticising WoLF’ is a curious defence!

Especially in the context of 2015 USA (pre Trump presidency, when the American Left refused to even consider there might be an issue for women and girls)

2014: time.com/135480/transgender-tipping-point/

2015: www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-cover-annie-leibovitz/

KatherineMAcosta · 29/10/2022 14:53

>>>we weren’t criticising SFW we were criticising WoLF’ is a curious defence!

This makes no sense to me. Defense of what? I'm happy to criticize KJK at any time, but that was not the point of my video. I was describing the organizations with whom Wolf and WDI USA, after the arrival of Kara Dansky, have worked, and how that affects policy outcomes in the USA. KJK was not the point. She may loom large in the eyes of her followers, but not everything is about her.

TheClogLady · 29/10/2022 14:59

is your whole post not a defence against the critical comments posted on this thread?

You signed up purely to comment here, after all, and to dispute the account of various established Mumsnetters…

Here’s your opener, as a reminder:

I made an account to respond to this post, as it bears little resemblance to my experience of the WPUK session at Filia, so I thought I’d offer an alternative perspective.

So that’s us naughty Domesticated Zombies, told, eh?

BeyondsEnergyObsession · 29/10/2022 15:02

Do you know what really irritates me? That we - feminist women who know better - are still using right and left as shorthand for good and bad.

They are economic positions, that is it.

BeyondsEnergyObsession · 29/10/2022 15:03

And (economically) let me be clear that I am saying that as a woman "on the left". I am not a "right winger" who is using any excuse to not be called so.

TheClogLady · 29/10/2022 15:06

BeyondsEnergyObsession · 29/10/2022 15:02

Do you know what really irritates me? That we - feminist women who know better - are still using right and left as shorthand for good and bad.

They are economic positions, that is it.

Quite.

And even then they are used inaccurately (ie open borders being positioned as left, when it’s a blatantly neoliberal policy americanaffairsjournal.org/2018/11/the-left-case-against-open-borders/ )

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread