Sunday Times - new schools legal case

[mcduffy]

Does anyone know if there's a crowdfunder?

Primary teacher to fight legal case after refusal to call female pupil by boy’s name

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/56b58b98-4bea-11ed-84cd-44cc4c68f778?shareToken=1fafa5629e4ecfda9b9d5a4e14ca05a9

That is such an illuminating article. I'd been wondering how it came about that parents ask schools to change their child's name and pronouns. It's quite shocking to read this:

"These children’s stories started years before, and I know that because I saw some of it happening on Facebook. Distant Facebook friends would say things like “We’ve known for a while this day was coming. But today we took the plunge. The barber cut Joanna’s hair and we have thrown out her old clothes. We welcome Joseph to our family!’ accompanied by a picture of a beaming 4-year-old with short hair wearing a Spiderman t-shirt. So easy to do for a four-year-old. Cut or grow their hair and no one will know the difference, and anyone who raised any concerns would be told that it’s ‘Fully reversible, it’s just clothes and pronouns! No one is medically transitioning children! Stop the moral panic!’ "

There again the question arises as to what exactly they are embarking on, what the destination is, what their responsibilities are, whether it's ethical and whether parents should be doing it in the first place and second, whether the schools should then be going along with it.

This part is very much what I think and I felt quite emotional reading this, thinking of what it is like being a child:

"I think of Emma when I see these distressed teenagers, and I wonder what our generation has forgotten that our parents knew. For they held onto reality for us, when we were too young to know the difference.

So I tell parents to take their children’s gender distress seriously, but also lightly. Take their desires to cut their hair, to wear Spiderman t-shirts and to play football seriously, but hold for them your knowledge that this doesn’t make them a boy. They don’t know that. Young children think that the external stuff IS what makes a girl or boy. They don’t know any different."

And this is part of my point: that cutting a child's hair or wearing this or that or playing football, doesn't justify loading greater significance onto those things, still less formalising and conferring status as 'social transition' - the author does use the term. Where is there any provision or legitimacy for talking about or proposing transition for a child, meaning changing their sex legally, in the way an adult is provided for, subject to the terms and conditions in the GRA? And if that doesn't exist for children how can 'social transition'?

If the average age of "realisation" is 5, then presumably the huge number of teenagers self-identifying must have known since they were in Reception but have been keeping the knowledge to themselves?

FunnyTalks - Yesterday 07:27

They will detect the strange power the trans child wields over the adults. Some of the classmates might be quite non conforming and will now be questioning whether they too need to transition. It makes a mockery of any teaching that stereotypes should be busted, and girls and boys can choose to like what they wish.

Yes, it does make a mockery of it doesn’t it? If, say, a little boy wanted longer hair and a unicorn hair band, he would be considered weird. If however he were to say he was trans, everyone would say, “Aah, yes of course.” Or, if he himself didn’t say he was trans, people would start suggesting he was.

Having a trans pupil in your class is not the same as teaching in RSE that some children are born in the wrong body. There is no DfE guidance (yet) on how to treat trans pupils so schools have been pretty much left to decide their own policy (into which gap slid Stonewall, Mermaids et al).

There is no legal definition of 'transgender' nobel. Schools have been advised as to 'gender identity'. Like others I don't believe in the 'trans child'.

If you mean what facilities they should use, then yes I believe clarification is being sought. And hopefully not the 'fudge' that was reported last week.

This post is excellent.

”I know a psychiatrist socially and he was saying that in his experience it is more damaging to refuse to accept people who are presenting as trans, even if you personally believe they are wrong.”

I think, if you refuse on all levels, you risk alienating the child/teenager, who may well be making a rebellious statement. Most parents of teens know that you have to pick your battles.

But there’s a line here. Allowing the child/teenager to wear different clothes is harmless. Not making a huge fuss is a good idea. Perhaps using a different name might fall under this category too.

Confirming their demand that you accept on all levels that they are the opposite sex is where that line is crossed. I think pronouns are probably a step too far as well. Parents should not be lying to their children, nor should medics.

@Amarette ...

Human rights act.. 1988
Article 10 Freedom of expression

This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.

@Abitofalark ... as I see it..
2004 Gender Recognition Act allows people over the age of 18 to legally change their gender
2010 Equality Act offers protection under 9 characteristics.. age, gender reassignment, being married or in a civil partnership, being pregnant or on maternity leave, disability, race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin, religion or belief, sex.

Under law, children who are trans gender are not protected.

But the teacher could defend their position under freedom of speech... perhaps..

Thanks for that, confirming that the GRA doesn't apply to children. It exists for adults and creates certain legal rights, procedures and recognition subject to conditions and a defined process.

But where I differ is that I say there aren't 'children who are trans gender'. How could people, legislators or anyone, think to apply a regulated status, designed for and applicable to adults, to children? There are just children. They may have heard and absorbed or been told something or had some passing thought or misunderstanding or been influenced or misdirected or confused or anxious or uncertain about something, which they don't have the maturity or experience of life to understand or counter. That doesn't make them anything other than what they are and always were. How could a school think any of that makes it an acceptable thing to put on a child?

I just found that article I mentioned upthread where Julie Bindel stated 'There is no such thing as a trans child'.

It was in The Spectator: " Is sanity returning to the trans debate? "

" At last, Mermaids, the UK charity for, in their own words, ‘gender variant and transgender children’ is under the spotlight."

On re reading I noticed this [in bold], with astonishment:

"I first contacted Mermaids in 2003, when investigating the notion of ‘trans children’ and was given the cold shoulder. Many other individuals and organisations that have grave concerns about its practices have spoken out, and as a result have been labelled bigots and transphobes. That we are now about to be validated is little comfort, bearing in mind the number of lives ruined by irreversible medical intervention on children who, if supported therapeutically, would likely have grown up to be lesbian or gay."

Julie is a longtime campaigner for women but this issue, which I thought of as recent, was all of 19 years ago - and she was on it, challenging it.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-sanity-returning-to-the-trans-debate-

Chateau, i forgot about The Article 10 freedom of expression that you mentioned as a possible avenue for a teacher. The Articles' rights apply to individuals and envisage freedom from interference by the State - or, as you quoted 'public authority'. In a school, is the teacher teaching as an individual or as the public authority? I would lean towards thinking it is the latter.

I wasn’t sure where to post this but as it’s school related, this week’s DfE email update includes that the teachers pay and conditions guidance has been updated to correct the reference to gender as a protected characteristic and replace it with sex. I don’t know if someone specifically complained about the misrepresentation of the equality act or whether they’re systematically reviewing publications.

We are living in very scary times, where children aren’t allowed to be children anymore. A 5yr old is barely able to communicate his/her need, but we want to assume they can decide to be boys when they’re girls? When I was younger, I loved the colour blue and wore only pants, that did not make me gay or transgender. But in todays world, once a little boy loves “girly” toys or colours we go “oh he must be a girl or is in early stage of gayhood.” I feel parents play a huge role in indoctrinating children into the gender they would have preferred.
This idea of trans is becoming a new religion with zero boundaries of care for how everyone else feels. Some children are being groomed into transition by teachers in school without the consent of their parents (Mermaids charity is an associating example), and some parents are grooming their children so they can identify as woke.

look at this LGBT+ survey and tell me this is not an insult to our intelligence. What business do children have been in a survey with complete adults. Everyday we watch how these things are being made a norm and one day soon we will wake up not knowing how we got here.

@FartOutLoudDay ... great username.. but thank you for sharing that.

On what planet are the needs of a 28 year old surrounding their declared sexuality the same as the needs of a babe in arms who doesn't even know what sexuality is, or possibly even what being outside is?

I figure the moron who came up with this is 27/28 & desperately wishing they were still 'young'.

@Brokendaughter society is getting crazier and what I see happening is that there are a group of people trying to blur the line between child abuse and pedophilia. Once society agree to comparing infants and adults in areas regarding sex, then that’ll be it.