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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Extremist TW

60 replies

Sparklybutold · 14/10/2022 22:02

I can't help but feel there's an emergence of two types of TW. Those that stay quiet and are just trying to do the best they can and then the more vocal ones that are actually doing more harm for the former. I can't help but feel this latter group are the extremists. In the past couple of weeks I have met 2 TW and both have left me feeling really uneasy. They dominated the space and were just rude.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
YouSirNeighMmmm · 15/10/2022 11:46

suggestionsplease1 · 14/10/2022 22:17

Perhaps that people used to say exactly the same about gay men? 🤷‍♂️

How they were alright with the "nice, quiet ones that didn't rub their lifestyles in other people's faces" but not the other sort?

The problem with old school homophobes is that old school homophobes thought that gay men being a bit effeminate and having a male friend was "rubbing their lifestyles in other people's faces."

The problem with modern queer theory advocates is that they equate being told to keep their naked body and fetish gear away from family and children's events ss the same as a gay man being told he must hide his sexual orientation

Sparklybutold · 15/10/2022 11:51

@NecessaryScene yeah that's the one - although I found myself getting very confused at the debunking bit. I've just read the article on fair play to women which clearly sets out that TW within the prison population do have significantly higher sex crime rates than for women. And although the authors state this does not equate to all TW, but just like the fact that not all men are predators, sex based spaces were designed for added protection for those men that are. I realize I'm writing this not for you but for my own benefit. Even uttering this in my professional space would likely get my ass in a disciplinary.

OP posts:
YouSirNeighMmmm · 15/10/2022 11:51

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/10/2022 22:38

@suggestionsplease1

so why shouldn’t the rest of the world have an opinion and even a preference?

‘Consenting adults in private’ was that such a bad principle ? (by which I don’t mean holding hands or kissing btw) . Why shouldn’t men like my husband , who was very handsome in his youth, get on fine with the two nice blokes who lived with each other next door, and with whom he could have a chat about cricket , but object to the blokes who attempted to grope him in the gents’ loos?

why really should any one’s ‘rights’ be more significant than anyone else’s? That is surely the basis for civil society.

100%.

TRAs don't seem to see the difference between

(a) a gay man being told to hide the very nature of who he is and who he loves from EVERYONE.

and

(b) a "queer" man being told to hide his erect penis, naked anus, sympathy for paedophiles, what he likes to do when he get access to sanitary bins, what household objects he shoves up his arse arse etc etc from children and public life

I am so not a prude, but I tend to find that I like to choose how and when to participate in other people's sex lives and fetishes.

Helleofabore · 15/10/2022 11:52

didn't rub their lifestyles in other people's faces

I think there are plenty of examples of transitioned males ‘rubbing’ their ‘lifestyles’ in other people’s faces. Maybe tell those transitioned males to stop posting with swords, erections and such in female toilets. Because your words are empty compared to the reality.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 15/10/2022 12:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 15/10/2022 12:27

I really wish I knew what I had done to break guidelines.

Helleofabore · 15/10/2022 12:31

Ask. Report a post of yours and ask what contravened the guidelines. If it was an important post, reword it.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 15/10/2022 12:38

The same arguments were employed against gay people, anecdotes were shared to polarise people against us, 'research' found that gay people were more predatory etc etc. All the same things that happened then are happening now. Plenty of people thought gay rights impinged on their rights to be safe etc, plenty of straight men didn't want gay men in the men's bathrooms, plenty of people thought gay men shouldn't have right to enter certain professions etc etc

So you are using the argument that some men didn't want gay men in their toilets to make women who don't want men in their toilets look bigoted and phobic?

There is no difference between a straight man, a gay man and a man with a gender identity. All are entitled to use male facilities, go to male prisons and enter male sports competitions. Anything else would be discrimination based on their sex.
No one is saying transwomen are 'more' predatory, we are saying they are no less risk than anyone else of their sex class. The sex class that commits almost all sex offences, so ALL men are considered the same amount of threat.

What 'rights' do trans people need that they don't already have in relation to their sex like everyone else?

IT IS NOT a 'human right' for a man to have any and all access to spaces where women and children are at their most vulnerable, or be exempt from normal safeguarding rules because being told no hurts their feelings.

Why have women's existing rights and protections to having boundaries, safety, privacy and dignity away from any male in certain circumstances, suddenly become completely unacceptable and must be ignored and removed to accommodate some men? Why?

Men weren't at greater risk from gay men in men's facilities.

The threat to women's safety is men having access to female only spaces. That threat doesn't lessen just because some men 'identify as' women.
Single sex spaces, sports and services are vital and legal.

I'm at the point were I question the motives, or intelligence, of anyone who thinks allowing men into female only spaces, and thus removing female legal protections, is perfectly fine and harmless, especially when there is no way to separate the men with 'genders' from any other man, as the entire ideology is based on unprovable, subjective feelings.

So you either think female people are a sex class in their own right, with the ability to name themselves as separate and distinct from male people with unique needs and to be able to advocate politically for those needs, or you don't, and you need to ask yourself why you think the sex based reality of half the population should be ignored to pander to male feelings.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 15/10/2022 12:49

I've just read the article on fair play to women which clearly sets out that TW within the prison population do have significantly higher sex crime rates than for women

Because they are men! It's not difficult. No magic happens when a man says he's a woman.
Sorry but it's so frustrating. Of course they have significantly higher sex crime rates than women. MEN commit 98% of all sex offences.

The problem is you are comparing a group of men to women instead of comparing them to other men.

JacquelineCarlyle · 15/10/2022 13:00

MorningPlatypus · 14/10/2022 22:22

The extremist TW have been chipping away at women's rights for some time.

In my opinion, any man who claims he's a woman is anti-women.

This!

Helleofabore · 15/10/2022 13:09

So you either think female people are a sex class in their own right, with the ability to name themselves as separate and distinct from male people with unique needs and to be able to advocate politically for those needs, or you don't, and you need to ask yourself why you think the sex based reality of half the population should be ignored to pander to male feelings.

I used to question how some (and not aimed at anyone specifically) posters could just post the same tropish posts over and over. Then I realised they were not seeking clarity. Many of us here are developing our thoughts on the various nuances of the wide scope of topics and processing it all again in light of any recent events, research etc.

I realised some posters are seeking only to emotionally manipulate lurkers and readers to ‘be kind’, or to ‘not be like those bigots’ (past or present). There is never any credible evidence posted. It is solely emotional manipulation and sometimes some polarisation as well.

These are cognitive distortions being used in place of facts and evidence.

Helleofabore · 15/10/2022 13:21

By the way, there are also quite a few gay men who are also very conscious of the fact there is a small group of them who are actually rather forthright about how they think that ‘not all intergenerational sex with children and those still minors is child sex abuse’. Shall we discuss those views too?

Shall we start with Peter Tatchell? Shall we discuss that Mermaids trustee?

Coming back to this point, the Mermaids Trustee I am referring to is Jacob Breslow.

As I say, there are quite a few LGB people who are calling out the published articles and rhetoric by males such as Tatchell and Breslow. Those LGB people are very clear that there are indeed people within their group who cross boundaries in excusing child sex abuse in their work or seek to destigmatise it or justify it. And they don’t ignore the fact there are people who hold such views or those who act on them.

What they don’t do is try to convince anyone that any male, gay or not, is less of a risk than others.

But that seems to be what suggestions does across these threads. I have no idea how they have explained the statistics and anecdotal evidence that is very easy to find, we have the archived links and screenshots and they are building every single day.

Maybe suggestions will tell us how they interpret the stats and anecdotal evidence to be so assured that transitioned males are no more risk than another female.

Outside of an analysis of their friends behaviours that is. We hear a lot about how friends are not like that, so the rest of the world is not like that.

WallaceinAnderland · 15/10/2022 13:24

These are cognitive distortions being used in place of facts and evidence.

Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Not one explanation is offered, it's all about deflection. For example, the argument that clownfish can change sex so humans can too. No. No they can't.

WallaceinAnderland · 15/10/2022 13:32

This video is brillant. Human beings are not clownfish and here's why

Video

Greenight · 15/10/2022 13:38

MorningPlatypus · 14/10/2022 22:22

The extremist TW have been chipping away at women's rights for some time.

In my opinion, any man who claims he's a woman is anti-women.

Imo the extremist transwomen are just a camouflaged branch of the incel movement. They hate women.

Brokendaughter · 15/10/2022 13:46

Any man, no matter how 'nice' someone says that man is, or how convinced someone is that you can't even tell they are really a man, who wants access to spaces intended for women is an extremist.

They are not nice or they wouldn't be trying to get into womens spaces, take womens jobs, take womens words or trample all over the rights of women.

LaughingPriest · 15/10/2022 13:46

There are those that are clear they are one sex and want to be the opposite sex. Your body determines what sex you are but you can feel as masculine or feminine as you like.

There are those who believe you have a free-floating gender that has nothing to do with your biological sex, and that this gender should take precedence in law and policy over sex. Sometimes, rather confusingly, these people also advocate for changing bodies to 'match' genders while simultaneously insisting sex and gender are entirely unlinked.

JustStopOilyPoshKids · 15/10/2022 14:30

In my mind, this good trans/ bad trans dichotomy is kind of similar to discussions that split the 'good' lefty feminists from the 'bad' 'in bed with fascists' ones.

Is all a massive oversimplification and an attempt to deny the messy complexities of the situation.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 15/10/2022 15:20

There is nothing remotely complex about keeping male people out of female only spaces.

Presentation and feelings are irrelevant. Humans can't change sex.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/10/2022 15:35

JustStopOilyPoshKids · 15/10/2022 14:30

In my mind, this good trans/ bad trans dichotomy is kind of similar to discussions that split the 'good' lefty feminists from the 'bad' 'in bed with fascists' ones.

Is all a massive oversimplification and an attempt to deny the messy complexities of the situation.

yep

any man who thinks complying with sexist stereotypes will make him a woman is by definition a sexist

the only variant is ho much of a dick he is about it

JustStopOilyPoshKids · 15/10/2022 15:36

I completely agree that humans cannot change sex. Alas the social fallout from any attempt to put the trans genie back in the bottle/ repeal the GRA would be pretty complex I would imagine.

Which I guess is why some purport to offer a more palatable/ reasonable take that differentiates the Paris Is Burning/ Pose 'tiny minority' 'genuinely dysphoric' 'just trying to live their life' trans person from those whose motivations could be more fetishistic Them three letters.

This reasoning does not really stand up to scrutiny.

JustStopOilyPoshKids · 15/10/2022 15:40

"any man who thinks complying with sexist stereotypes will make him a woman is by definition a sexist

the only variant is ho much of a dick he is about it"
Pretty much the rub of it @BernardBlacksMolluscs

Ofcourseshecan · 21/10/2022 15:51

Sparklybutold · 15/10/2022 00:09

@Ofcourseshecan

I thought the stats of TW crime was debunked?

Sorry OP, I've only just seen this. The stats that have been debunked are the fake stats put out by transactivists about a supposed high suicide rate etc.

The genuine stats about TW crime are coming out slowly. TW offend at the same rate as other males, which is much higher than the female crime rate. Transitioning does not reduce a male person's likelihood of committing a crime. Refs: Sexton et al 2010; Dhejne et al 2011.

TW seem more likely than other males to commit sexual offences, according to official statistics. (This is one reason why women don't want them in places where we are likely to be undressed or vulnerable.)

The Ministry of Justice stated in January 2022:
As of our latest data collection on 31 March 2021, there were 146 transgender women (that is, prisoners who were legally male and identified as female) in all prisons across England and Wales. ... These figures do not include transgender prisoners with gender recognition certificates ...In the men’s estate, there were 87 transgender women with a conviction for at least one sexual offence.
questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2022-01-06/98878

So, 60% of self-identifying TW in prison have committed sexual offences, compared with about 17% of all male prisoners, according to Ministry of Justice figures.

Some of these TW are housed in women's prisons, despite having committed serious offences against women and children.

From the Keep Women's Prisons Single-sex campaign:
kpssinfo.org/males-in-womens-prisons-convictions-sentences/

We have collected details of 28 males convicted between 2014 and 2020 who are known to have been held in women’s prisons or have been given a place in a women’s hostel after release. However, the true number of males who have been held in female prisons is almost certain to be higher than this. ...
All but two were convicted of violent or sexual offences. This includes: ten who were convicted of rape or attempted rape, including the rape of children; ten who were convicted of murder or attempted murder; four who were convicted of sexual offences against children.

transcrimeuk.com has a long list of transpeople who have been convicted of crimes. Most are by TW, but in many cases these have been recorded as crimes by women.

And there's masses more information available. This is just a start.

Ofcourseshecan · 21/10/2022 15:53

Ofcourseshecan · 21/10/2022 15:51

Sorry OP, I've only just seen this. The stats that have been debunked are the fake stats put out by transactivists about a supposed high suicide rate etc.

The genuine stats about TW crime are coming out slowly. TW offend at the same rate as other males, which is much higher than the female crime rate. Transitioning does not reduce a male person's likelihood of committing a crime. Refs: Sexton et al 2010; Dhejne et al 2011.

TW seem more likely than other males to commit sexual offences, according to official statistics. (This is one reason why women don't want them in places where we are likely to be undressed or vulnerable.)

The Ministry of Justice stated in January 2022:
As of our latest data collection on 31 March 2021, there were 146 transgender women (that is, prisoners who were legally male and identified as female) in all prisons across England and Wales. ... These figures do not include transgender prisoners with gender recognition certificates ...In the men’s estate, there were 87 transgender women with a conviction for at least one sexual offence.
questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2022-01-06/98878

So, 60% of self-identifying TW in prison have committed sexual offences, compared with about 17% of all male prisoners, according to Ministry of Justice figures.

Some of these TW are housed in women's prisons, despite having committed serious offences against women and children.

From the Keep Women's Prisons Single-sex campaign:
kpssinfo.org/males-in-womens-prisons-convictions-sentences/

We have collected details of 28 males convicted between 2014 and 2020 who are known to have been held in women’s prisons or have been given a place in a women’s hostel after release. However, the true number of males who have been held in female prisons is almost certain to be higher than this. ...
All but two were convicted of violent or sexual offences. This includes: ten who were convicted of rape or attempted rape, including the rape of children; ten who were convicted of murder or attempted murder; four who were convicted of sexual offences against children.

transcrimeuk.com has a long list of transpeople who have been convicted of crimes. Most are by TW, but in many cases these have been recorded as crimes by women.

And there's masses more information available. This is just a start.

For @Sparklybutold

Blister · 21/10/2022 16:04

So how is the forced teaming of women complaining equating to forcing transwomen to be silenced going?

That's what you are trying to show right?

You'll stop at nothing to shut women up to get access to single sex spaces.

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