Mermaids justification for supplying breast binders to kids

[MarmaladeFatkins]

they in a statement on their website regarding supplying binders;

Binders
Some trans masculine, non-binary and gender diverse people experience bodily dysphoria, as a result of their chest, and binding, for some, helps alleviate that distress. Mermaids takes a harm reduction position with the understanding that providing a young person with a binder and comprehensive safety guidelines from an experienced member of staff is preferable to the likely alternative of unsafe practices and/or continued or increasing dysphoria. The risk is considered by Mermaids staff within the context of our safeguarding framework. More on binder safety can be found here.

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/statement-in-response-to-a-telegraph-article-published-sunday-25-september/

HOWEVER I am almost sure that I have seen research that shows there are actually more harmful effects experiences when wearing commercial binders, compared with home made solutions? is this the case?

Or, if they're 'just sports bras', then - why not send out sports bras? Because there's nothing creepy at all about adults posting children underwear.

If they are just like sports bras, why not just use sports bras? Seems like that would be a lot easier 🤔

The full text is here:
cabinradio.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Health-impact-of-chest-binding-among-transgender-adults-a-community-engaged-cross-sectional-study.pdf

This paragraph gives a bit more information:

Commercial binders were the binding method most consistently associated with negative health outcomes, possibly because such binders have the potential to provide more compression than other binding methods. This finding is inconsistent with community perceptions that commercial binders represent the safest option (Cole and Han 2011; QMunity 2013; Stanford University 2014; Hudson 2004; Transguys 2014). This study lacked sufficient detail about participants’ binding practices to determine if binders are uniformly risky, or if practices such as wearing multiple binders or overly tight binders drove the heightened risk associated with binders in this study. Elastic and other bandages, duct tape, and plastic wrap were all commonly associated with negative health outcomes, a finding consistent with existing community recommendations against their use. Sports bras, layering sports bras, and neoprene or athletic compression wear were the binding methods least commonly associated with negative outcomes, and therefore may be the safest options for binding.

They found that commercial binders as well as elastic bandages, duct tape and plastic wrap are all associated with negative outcomes while other methods like sports bras are safer. There was also a lot more data from users of binders - 1570 participants in the study used them compared with 298 using elastic bandages and 78 using duct tape or plastic wrap, so more potential for negative outcomes to be experienced. They also don't know how many participants were wearing multiple binders or overly tight binders.

There's more detail on the figures for each binding method in the appendices of the .doc version of the paper which you can download from here:

scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?cluster=12662798008292072347&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&as_ylo=2014&as_yhi=2018

Actually to clarify, having read the paper more thoroughly rather than skimming, it wasn't just the proportion of participants who reported negative outcomes. There was an analysis of which method was associated with significantly greater risk of each outcome occurring. Binders were associated with significantly greater risk of 20 out of 28 negative outcomes. Other methods were associated with significantly greater risk of lower numbers of negative outcomes.

The majority of the participants were from the US and aged under 24. Most used some method of binding 7 days a week and had been binding for at least a year. Commercial binders were by ar the most popular method - 87% of participants had used a commercial binder, compared to 33% for the next most popular method, sports bras. Frequency of use (days/week) was significantly associated with risk in 22/28 of negative outcomes - i.e. for 22/28 outcomes, the more often the method was used, the higher the risk of experiencing that negative outcome. So the results may in part reflect the fact that a high proportion of the study participants were using commercial binders on a regular basis, compared to other methods.

They are holy vestments of mortification.

Also, now I've thought about it, 'we send out bras to pubertal girls' just doesn't sound good, does it?

www.cilice.co.uk/product/a-traditional-sack-cloth-hairshirt-with-belt-and-metal-buckle/

Maybe this garment would avoid both the evidenced harms of breast binders and the difficult connotations of bras?

The goatskin is quite dashing:

www.cilice.co.uk/product/goatskin-hairshirt/

thanks @OldCrone and @Awiltu 😘

I mean, they ain't sports bras, are they 🤷🏼‍♀️ I often wear sports bras all day because they give firm support but I breasts aren't flattened/crushed. you don't overheat/have trouble breathing experience Muscoskeletal problems with sports bras...but they don't make your tits invisible either

But who are these parents who are so 'transphobic' and 'unsupportive' that they wouldn't buy their teenager a well-fitting sports bra on request? Also these are garments that are freely available in shops that a teenager could buy independently with pocket money.

No need for any charity to be involved with getting hold of something as innocuous as a sports bra.

Sorry for going off tangent but didn't the mermaid staff repeatedly tell the judge(?) that they have no medical training? Im talking about the LGBA and CC fiasco instigated by MM. So why are they now posting that they know enough about gender dysphoria. And who is this mysterious experienced member of staff, i think we need a name please, coupled with their medical degree.

Mermaids' alleged "harm reduction" relies on their dodgy suicide statistics, I imagine. Even if the stats weren't dodgy, trying to pin down a suicide to a single cause is in breach of Samaritans' guidelines.

"duration (number of years spent binding regardless of frequency
or intensity) was independently and positively associated with 13 health outcomes,
particularly skin and soft tissue outcomes and musculoskeletal outcomes....For individuals experiencing significant gender dysphoria, chest reconstruction surgery offers a way to decrease risks associated with duration [of binding]"

This gem is from the Discussion of the paper. The authors are actually suggesting that to avoid negative outcomes from binding, maybe gender dysphoric girls and women should just have a bilateral mastectomy instead.

So, to avoid all the unpleasant and painful side effects of a reversible method of breast reduction, they should just opt for an irreversible method instead? There are no words....

so there is no 'harm reduction' justification AT ALL for Mermaids to supply commercial binders. because the kids will experience MORE negative outcomes, than if they used a home made solution.

@MarmaladeFatkins Exactly!

There is also the endless, staggering arrogance that this organisation is much better qualified than parents to make such a serious decision on the best interests and least harm to a child they have never met, know nothing about, and have absolutely no responsibility for or involvement with. And will have no idea of the consequences of. While intentionally and righteously subverting the trust and ability of the child's guardians and closest bonded adults to support that child and make the right decisions for them.

THEY'RE NOT QUALIFIED.

They even tell the girls themselves too not order too small a size!

They are sending these out without knowing the first fucking thing about the girls they are sending them to, even their correct size. And in the teeth of their parents' explicit opposition.

Jesus wept. And who is this experienced adult? Another youngster who wore a breast binder?? Or a doctor who has seen these girls, talked to them, assessed them, and maybe measured them if they think it's absolutely necessary.

Every time they send out a statement, they confirm that they don't know what the fuck they're doing.

And why are these girls wanting to squash their breasts? Is it because they want to look like fucking GI Joe?

You'd think, wouldn't you, before sending out that ridiculous statement claiming they are opting for 'harm reduction', that they might have even the teeniest tiniest inkling that someone might look up whether or not it actually reduces the harm!

Their damage limitation is nothing more than a spade and an even bigger hole.

Because, as Red says, what they are doing is in direct opposition to safeguarding.

This!

The study does not support such a conclusion.

First of all, 87% of the 1800 valid responses reported using commercial binders vs 16% for elastic bandages, so you would expect that with a bigger number of women using these binders, you'd get more adverse reactions, especially if they don't happen as often.

Second, the authors surmise that commercial binders may be associated with more negative outcomes because they are misused (that is respondents may be buying them in a much smaller size than they should). So from this study we do not know whether commercial binders - if sized correctly - may be less damaging.

Third, although binders may be associated with more negative outcomes than elastic bandages, this doesn't tell you much about the nature or severity of the issues. When it comes to rib fractures for instance, commercial binders were not associated with rib fractures whereas elastic bandages were the biggest risk factor for such an outcome.

Essentially no method is safe, so the authors recommend the following:

Healthcare providers may be able to help their patients reduce negative outcomes associated with binding by recommending ‘off-days’ from binding when possible, avoiding elastic bandages, duct tape and plastic wrap as methods for binding and using caution with commercial binders.

In other words, they come to the conclusion that not binding at all on at least some days would be most beneficial.

And here's the recommendation that Mermaids should pay attention to the most:

In addition to frequency, duration (number of years spent binding regardless of frequency or intensity) was independently and positively associated with 13 health outcomes, particularly skin and soft tissue outcomes and musculoskeletal outcomes. Reducing duration by delaying the onset of binding, if possible, may reduce the risk of experiencing the negative physical outcomes explored in this study.

This study only looked at adult women. Although some will have reported binding as minors (duration for almost all was at least 1 year of binding, longest was 4 years) and they collected responses from those aged 18 and over, with 18 to 24 being the biggest age group, none in this study were binding from as young an age as the child Mermaids offered a binder to. I'm also not aware of any other study looking into the negative health outcomes of binding in minors at all. This makes a big difference, because the adolescent body is uniquely vulnerable in a way that an adult body is not. And the younger the child the less likely they are to (be able to) follow the instructions.

As our bodies still develop further in young adulthood, it makes perfect sense that the authors recommend delaying the onset of binding for as long as possible, because damage is more likely in an immature body. It's not rocket science, is it? And obviously, the later binding starts, the less the duration overall.

For some reason, IW tweet the other day about how 'Mermaids were sending out sports bras' really upsetting. I don't know why because it's....India Willoughby. So why do I give a shit? I think its just because its so fucking gaslighty, and these people seem to just be able to outright lie and twist things so easily, it just makes me feel uneasy what they will do as more and more light gets shone on this?

@CharlieParley thanks for the more in depth analysis

I think that take away for me is that although Mermaids (and other orgs as well) always recommend commercial binders as 'better', there is no evidence to support that at all. and mermaids justification of 'harm reduction' has no basis

India as ever being unhelpful to his side. It makes no sense to claim they are like sports bras. Sports bras support breasts and ensure they remain undamaged by rigorous sports. You wear them because you like your tits a lot and want to protect them. Binders are used by those who seek to deny the existence of their breasts and wish to squash them into oblivion. Supplying a sports bra to a dysphoric teen would be rather insensitive, I would have thought.

Somebody kind needs to prise the spade out of Susie Green's hands, because that hole she is digging is already awfully deep.

I suppose India could claim that the binder identifies as a sports bra.

I find this statement from Mermaids is just a weak appeal to emotional manipulation. What will it take for people to stop using their service?

The level of loyalty they have accrued through their creation of fear that the outside world hates them and that hate is shown via people saying no to forced language changes and women saying no, is quite the feat to see. Sadly, they have created a group with little resilience and a group that expects to live in a bubble of their own beliefs.

And no IWilloughby, they are quite the opposite of sports bras. And most females realise this upon seeing a picture of them. But crack on IWilloughby in just continuing to show you are not a female.

oh dear lord. A sports bra is what girls wear to do sport.

When girls wear binders, they're told not to do sport. It's the opposite of a sports bra.

Of course, India wouldn't have the first clue about any of this.