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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lib Dems "Transphobia" definition deemed illegal

19 replies

Birdsweepsin · 13/10/2022 13:11

liberalvoiceforwomen.org/blog/call-for-review

The Definition of Transphobia - heavily helped into creation by Stonewall and TransActual - has been found to be unlawful, or at least, that the party has been acting unlawfully - ianal.

Ypu van sign a letter calling for a review of the definition here: liberalvoiceforwomen.org/blog/call-for-review

There are also good analyses of the Definition by Stephen Daisely and Audrey Ludwig for more background

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donquixotedelamancha · 13/10/2022 13:40

Well, it's not been found to be illegal, a lawyer has given the opinion that it is.

I don't think that's a surprise given recent rulings. I certainly think the woman who was banned for 10 years for a T shirt (don't know whether her name is in the public domain) has good grounds for legal action.

You need solid incidents of discrimination to bring stuff like this to trial. There are likely to be other actionable incidents out there. As a former Lib Dem of many years I'd love to be able to contribute to a crowdfunder.

donquixotedelamancha · 13/10/2022 13:41

Forgot to add: thanks for sharing, OP, really interesting. Great to see some Lib Dems keep fighting for the old party.

Birdsweepsin · 13/10/2022 14:27

Thanks DQdelaM

Did you spot this bit? Very worrying

More recently, credible evidence has emerged that members of Party staff held a blacklist of party members known or suspected to be gender critical, in order to ensure that they could be excluded from particular roles and activities.

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donquixotedelamancha · 13/10/2022 14:40

Did you spot this bit? Very worrying

Worrying but sadly unsurprising. The people pushing this stuff in the party are highly intolerant. In the unlikely even they ever got power they'd be incredibly totalitarian. Bitterly ironic that they chose the liberals as their vehicle.

The green Genderists do something similar.

pattihews · 13/10/2022 14:45

I'm not surprised to read Birdsweepsin information.

My DP, furious with Labour/ Corbyn, joined the Lib Dems in 2015-2016 after being impressed by their local candidate — an older man, professor of politics and GC. DP was phoned not long after by a local LD organiser trying to encourage involvement. When DP asked about their line on women-only spaces and revealed she was a GC lesbian she was told she was transphobic and not suitable to be a Lib Dem member.

DP held on in there, encouraged by the candidate who was also anti gender ideology, but he was ousted by the LGB TQI+ brigade and the next time she was phoned it was the new candidate who was gay and a true Gender Believer. He started speaking to her, then appeared to check his notes, said 'I can't talk to you, you're a transphobe and you shouldn't be on my call list.'

DP never actually left the Lib Dems and doesn't appear to have been chucked out, but but has never been required to pay a sub again.

RoyalCorgi · 13/10/2022 14:47

Utterly effing nuts:

www.libdemvoice.org/liberal-democrats-adopt-definition-of-transphobia-65868.html

YouSirNeighMmmm · 13/10/2022 14:47

donquixotedelamancha · 13/10/2022 14:40

Did you spot this bit? Very worrying

Worrying but sadly unsurprising. The people pushing this stuff in the party are highly intolerant. In the unlikely even they ever got power they'd be incredibly totalitarian. Bitterly ironic that they chose the liberals as their vehicle.

The green Genderists do something similar.

Surely it is perfectly fine for a political party to only be open to some views or another? It is perfectly legal to believe that the tax system should be set up to benefit the 1% no matter the cost to the 99%, but that doesn't mean that labour have an obligation to treat two party members equally, even though one of them wants power in the party to push an agenda which the party as a whole is absolutely opposed to. Surely?

The problem here is not that the lib dems have a policy to exclude and silence members who are pushing ideas that many in the Lib Dems find to be bigoted and hateful... the issue is that the Lib Dems are claiming to be morally right whilst pushing forward an evil agenda and silencing those who are correct.

No political party has an obligation to listen to any member who seeks to make homosexuality illegal and bring in literal aparteid. The problem is that many people think that thier position is morally correct and settled, when in fact it is neither of those things.

The problem is that stonewall and mermaids have convinced much of mainstream society (not least in the media and political bubbles) that the matter is settled when it is not. THis is a failure of society to know when a matter is settled, not a failure of political parties to listen to ideas that they believe are settled in their favour.

donquixotedelamancha · 13/10/2022 15:21

Surely it is perfectly fine for a political party to only be open to some views or another?

Of course. It's how they do that which makes it, at least, unpleasant. You can be a feminist and a Tory despite the fact that many Tories would disagree but they wouldn't ban you from the party for wearing a t-shirt with a feminist slogan.

Similarly removing people from positions of power within the party by democratic vote is fine; making a blacklist and using it to target people you are supposed to be on the same side with (while publicly saying the opposite) isn't.

pattihews · 13/10/2022 16:51

Yes, maybe it is — but they need to be clear about their membership criteria. At the time DP joined, their local candidate was GC too!

YouSirNeighMmmm · 13/10/2022 16:57

Two good points - honesty and transparency are vital, as is membership criteria is you are pushing an agenda.

I just dislike what I perceive to be a lazy take along the lines of "how dare they take that moral position?" when political parties and companies and individuals are constantly making moral positions such as zero toloerance for racism.

The problem is not society and organisations taking a moral position and determining that issue to be settled. The problem is society and organisations taking an immoral position that is not settled, and determining that their position is moral and settled.

The issue is not how to stop society and organisations taking a moral position it is to make sure that we / they make the correct moral decisions that can convince the vast majority.

DadJoke · 13/10/2022 18:40

They can definie transphobia however they want. They can also pick and chose the beliefs they hold, and kick people out who don't agree with those views. There is absolutely nothing illegal about kicking people with gender critical views from a political party, any more than a gender critical party has to accept people who oppose transphobia.

fromorbit · 13/10/2022 20:03

DadJoke · 13/10/2022 18:40

They can definie transphobia however they want. They can also pick and chose the beliefs they hold, and kick people out who don't agree with those views. There is absolutely nothing illegal about kicking people with gender critical views from a political party, any more than a gender critical party has to accept people who oppose transphobia.

Actually political parties in the UK are supposed to follow the Equality Act. As Labour found out:

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/core-guidance-parliaments-politicians-and-political-parties

So the Lib dems are on dodgy ground for sure because their definition of transphobia is not based on the law. Saying transgender people don't exist in the way queer theory claims should not be a problem any more than saying Christianity is a fiction. What you can't do is hassle individual transitioning people or Christians. I mean look at this example it is outrageous in a liberal party:

"Another activist of very many years who is a practising Muslim, was told that he would be suspended from the Party until he had satisfactorily completed LGBTQ+ awareness training, after stating that he had reservations, based on his religious beliefs, about aspects of sex education in schools and about the impact on women of male inclusion in areas such as women’s sports and changing rooms. He refused to undergo such re-education and was eventually successful in appealing against his suspension, though only after more than a year."

Some modern liberals are basically becoming like the Christian People's Alliance party pretty narrow minded.

The problem is trying to turn a liberal party into a bigot party which despises feminists and Muslims is going to run into trouble with ongoing drama. You can see the same thing in the Greens lots of people are fine with people being gender critical which is why they GCs in the party are still a big group.

Birdsweepsin · 13/10/2022 21:43

Joanna Cherry: Legal advice to Lib Dems confirms that political parties who create an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for their gender critical members are guilty of harassment under the #EqualityAct.

twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1580616959363674112?s=20&t=05ZvrseVMhDCvJ_nNYz5QQ

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TooBigForMyBoots · 13/10/2022 22:58

Joanne Cherry is an amazing woman.😍

Birdsweepsin · 14/10/2022 08:35

Everyone's favourite bundle of fun weighs in.

twitter.com/moira_robin/status/1580655008491933696?s=20&t=Bfi9yBVCMHVxhfrhS5Q4qQ

I'm not an expert but this argument seems to be that everyone in a political party must agree with everything the party says, does, or puts forward as policy. 🙃

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LunaLights · 15/10/2022 02:30

Bundle of fun… 🤣😂

severnboring · 15/10/2022 08:52

Lib Dems celebrating the idiotic and unlawful 'trans rights' motion passed in Bristol:

twitter.com/andrewbrownld/status/1580960897501401089

Birdsweepsin · 15/10/2022 11:46

severnboring · 15/10/2022 08:52

Lib Dems celebrating the idiotic and unlawful 'trans rights' motion passed in Bristol:

twitter.com/andrewbrownld/status/1580960897501401089

Lots of these motions being put forward, mostly by LD and Green Party councillors.

But they aren't very wise

McNamara said: “This is the clearest example of an unlawful motion I have ever seen. It is in breach of the Equality Act because there was no Equality Impact Assessment, and the Human Rights Act because it prevents free speech by deterring any employee of the council questioning whether a trans woman has literally changed their sex.

“The consultation on the new policy is also unlawful as it does not explain what the consequences of the policy are. It is a sham.”

www.bristol247.com/lgbtq/news-lgbtq/claims-trans-rights-motion-unlawful/

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Birdsweepsin · 16/10/2022 10:16

It gets dodgier.

Questions were raised - and the people asking the questions were apparently removed. Thread here

twitter.com/JoHayesLibDem/status/1581560473035902976?s=20&t=w7evDYrDciuZe-ZO5LNrdg

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