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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish women! Please write to your MSPs!

130 replies

ArabellaScott · 11/10/2022 17:52

Info and templates from For Women Scotland on the proposed introduction of self ID in Scotland:

forwomen.scot/08/10/2022/gender-recognition-reform-bill-stage-1-action/

To find your MSPs:

www.writetothem.com/

Please spread the word!

OP posts:
rogdmum · 25/10/2022 17:13

RealFeminist · 24/10/2022 18:09

GRCs for children under 16

JFC

Not without precedence though. Although he rowed back on it this time, back in 2018 for the first GRR consultation, the Children’s Commissioner argued for children from 12-16 to be able to obtain a GRC. The policy officer involved at the time said they “need to be brave on this one.”

Scottish women! Please write to your MSPs!
Scottish women! Please write to your MSPs!
ArabellaScott · 25/10/2022 17:33

all people are human beings

Amazing. That could be the SNP's new strapline.

Presuming she's talking about the most recent consultation? From 2022:

yourviews.parliament.scot/ehrcj/1e24dbb1/

www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/bills/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill/stage-1

Summary is there under 'Read the summary of short survey responses'.

It's laughably massaged and biased. But they did admit that '59% of those who responded disagreed with the overall purpose of the Bill;'

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 25/10/2022 17:35

all people are human beings

I just reread that. Do you know sometimes I am bloody embarrassed by our government.

OP posts:
Snowshower · 25/10/2022 17:50

Thanks Arabella,

She is taking her info from the consultation published in Sept 2021.

That link is very useful to show people are not supportive of the bill in general.

"All people are human beings"

Just reminds me of the guy who has had surgery to look like an alien. I am not sure he would agree. Perhaps I should point out that this statement is literal violence unless she has personally checked that every person on earth does indeed identity as a human being.

JanieAllen · 25/10/2022 18:02

seen on a bus stop on Abbeyhill Edinburgh... if any tells me that they are really worried and on the run is this....

Scottish women! Please write to your MSPs!
JanieAllen · 25/10/2022 18:02

the lesson is KEEP WRITING !

JanieAllen · 26/10/2022 09:54

Bumpette please write today as tomorrow is the vote

MagnoliaTaint · 26/10/2022 11:20

Jamie Halcro:

'There have been several groups across Scotland that have come forward and raised legitimate concerns about proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. It is important that these concerns are listened to, and included in the debate, so that this issue does not become one-sided. I have met with individuals and organisations on both sides of the debate and will continue to do so.

We have too often seen concerns about changes to gender recognition law dismissed as being invalid or badly motivated, instead of being based on legitimate concerns surrounding women’s safety.

This is clearly a sensitive topic on which opinions are firmly divided. However, we are clear though that we must protect the rights of women and children, and take seriously concerns that these rights are being eroded.'

cesspoolclowncar · 26/10/2022 18:26

JanieAllen · 25/10/2022 18:02

seen on a bus stop on Abbeyhill Edinburgh... if any tells me that they are really worried and on the run is this....

God, "trans joy" is such an insidious little phrase, when it basically refers to male creeps turning themselves on with stupid balloon tits.

rogdmum · 26/10/2022 18:28

Scottish Labour are being whipped to support the Bill tomorrow. 😡

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-msps-will-be-whipped-to-vote-in-favour-of-gender-recognition-reforms-3894529

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 26/10/2022 19:21

The SNP and Lab both being whipped in support - although Lab may make amendments at stage 2.

They both know that this is not supported, it's a disgrace!

Waitwhat23 · 26/10/2022 20:31

If anyone is on Twitter, women are posting pictures of the word no written on their hands along with the hashtags #NoToSelfId #ThisIsMyNo and #WomenWontWheesht

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2022 21:17

Well, they've been told. It'll be on their consciences.

OP posts:
Rainbowshit · 26/10/2022 22:16

Done. Shame on all who vote for this they cannot say they were not warned.

wesayno · 26/10/2022 23:15

Conservative (bolded an interested part):

Thank you for contacting me ahead of the Stage 1 debate on the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, which will take place in the Scottish Parliament later this week. I have received more email correspondence on this issue than on any other since I was elected last May.

This is a very sensitive issue and there are strong views on both sides of the debate. While I am supportive of many of the aims of the Bill, such as recognising the need to improve the process followed by trans people, I do believe in the need to protect vulnerable individuals and the rights of women and girls.

As a doctor, I have experience of dealing with patients in these circumstances, so am not ignorant of the impact that legislation will have on people in this situation. That is specifically why I am so determined to ensure that we get legislation in this very sensitive area right.

The Scottish Conservatives have decided that this will be a free vote and as such I do not have to follow a Party line. I have read a great deal of background information relating to this subject and will make up my mind as to how to cast my vote after the debate takes place on Thursday afternoon. For clarity, I should state that I do have concerns about how the legislation is currently drafted, but I will listen carefully to what the Minister says in the course of the debate and will decide how to vote based on the information placed in front of me.

Thank you once again for taking the time to contact me on this issue and setting out your concerns.

RhannionKPSS · 27/10/2022 00:18

wesayno · 26/10/2022 23:15

Conservative (bolded an interested part):

Thank you for contacting me ahead of the Stage 1 debate on the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, which will take place in the Scottish Parliament later this week. I have received more email correspondence on this issue than on any other since I was elected last May.

This is a very sensitive issue and there are strong views on both sides of the debate. While I am supportive of many of the aims of the Bill, such as recognising the need to improve the process followed by trans people, I do believe in the need to protect vulnerable individuals and the rights of women and girls.

As a doctor, I have experience of dealing with patients in these circumstances, so am not ignorant of the impact that legislation will have on people in this situation. That is specifically why I am so determined to ensure that we get legislation in this very sensitive area right.

The Scottish Conservatives have decided that this will be a free vote and as such I do not have to follow a Party line. I have read a great deal of background information relating to this subject and will make up my mind as to how to cast my vote after the debate takes place on Thursday afternoon. For clarity, I should state that I do have concerns about how the legislation is currently drafted, but I will listen carefully to what the Minister says in the course of the debate and will decide how to vote based on the information placed in front of me.

Thank you once again for taking the time to contact me on this issue and setting out your concerns.

That’s an interesting response, very telling that they say it’s the subject that so many people have contacted them about.

seXX · 27/10/2022 07:51

Considered response from Labour:

Thank you for taking the time to write to me regarding the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill which reaches Stage One consideration in Parliament this Thursday 27th October. Members will be voting on the principle of reform and I want to set out my position to you ahead of this vote.

I believe that it is the job of parliament to best find common ground in the country; to balance the need for reform and the need for protection of existing rights. Our dialogue and our laws must show empathy and care for all. I set out this position in the full knowledge that it will not fully satisfy either side of what has become a very polarised debate.
Obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate can be a lengthy, undignified and disrespectful process. As such, Scottish Labour believes there is a need for a reform of that process to make it better for trans people in Scotland. I share these concerns and believe that the principle of reform is right and as such I intend to vote in favour of the principle of reform at Stage One.

However, the Bill as it stands has created very significant and well-founded concerns in significant parts of the population. I know that many people – particularly women – are concerned at the proposed laws and what they might mean for hard won sex-based rights, rights that still far too often do not deliver equality or safety. I share these concerns and believe that only significant amendments to the Bill can protect these rights and offer confidence to many women across Scotland.
In order to seek this balance I support three key areas of amendment and development.

Guarantee of the Equality Act (2010)
The protections guaranteed in the Equality Act must be made explicit in this new law. The guarantee of sex based rights, women’s spaces and services must be retained and Scottish women must have the confidence that they are being retained. Doing so will require amendment at Stage Two or Stage Three of the parliamentary process. Scottish Labour is committed to pursuing these amendments.

Process safeguards
Confidence in the new process for obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate is paramount. Trans people should know that the process commands their own confidence and that of the wider public. The Bill as drafted has very few safeguards to prevent it being abused by bad actors. Scottish Labour believes that consideration should be given to how the application process can be strengthened in order to command broad public confidence. I personally believe that a counter-signatory process would help to build this confidence meaning that applications are not made in solitary isolation. The comparable process would be changes to passports to which all citizens must adhere when amending personal details. The signature of another person is widely accepted and supported in this process and is a standard part of our day to day life. Such a signatory process, properly developed and implemented, would serve to better protect all parties.

Age of applicants
The bill currently proposes the reduction of the age restriction for GRC applications from 18 to 16 years. The Government has made a poor job to date of answering questions posed in this area, including those from the Equalities and Human Rights Commission and I believe that significant development of the case for this change would be necessary before it can command widespread public support.

I believe, that with the significant amendments laid out above, a ground can be found that commands broader and vital public support.

I thank you for your correspondence and for making your position known to me. I hope that the above makes clear to you the approach I am taking as your MSP. I can assure you that I have taken on board the many representations made to me in considering this legislation

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2022 09:45

Two thoughtful replies. Glad the Conservatives are having a free vote; that shows integrity imo. And the Labour response shows the person has given this thought - 'The Bill as drafted has very few safeguards to prevent it being abused by bad actors.' - were there any safeguards?

'The protections guaranteed in the Equality Act must be made explicit in this new law. The guarantee of sex based rights, women’s spaces and services must be retained and Scottish women must have the confidence that they are being retained. Doing so will require amendment at Stage Two or Stage Three of the parliamentary process. Scottish Labour is committed to pursuing these amendments.'

That is a good, sensible approach. Ths would require a male who has been employed in a job that was reserved for females under the single sex exemption to be removed from post, for example? And the spaces where women wish to have single sex exemptions actually enforced. So no males in prisons, hospitals, changing rooms, etc. (GRC or not would be irrelevant, as has been made clear several times).

I think if that crucial part of the EA were properly upheld - if sex were recognised and rights pertaining to sex properly protected - then they could hand out GRCs like sweeties and it probably wouldn't have much impact.

OP posts:
wesayno · 09/11/2022 18:15

Belated response from Labour:

Firstly, I would like to apologise for the delay in getting back to your email. My office has received thousands of emails regarding the Gender Recognition Reform Bill, and we have been working hard to get back to everyone, but this has resulted in some delays. Please accept my sincere apologies for this.

Thank you for taking the time to write to me regarding the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill which reached Stage One consideration in Parliament on the 27th October 2022. Members voted on the principle of reform and I want to set out my position to you.

I set out this position in the full knowledge that it will not fully satisfy either side of what has become a very polarised debate. I believe that it is the job of parliament to best find common ground in the country; to balance the need for reform and the need for protection of existing rights. Our dialogue and our laws must show empathy and care for all.

Obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate can be a lengthy and upsetting process. As such, Scottish Labour believes there is a need for a reform of that process to make it better for trans people in Scotland. I share these concerns and believe that the principle of reform is right and as such I voted in favour of the principle of reform at Stage One on that basis.

The Bill as it stands has created very significant and well-founded concerns in significant parts of the population. I know that many people – particularly women – are concerned at the proposed laws and what they might mean for hard won sex-based rights, rights that still far too often do not deliver equality or safety. I share these concerns and believe that only significant amendments to the Bill can protect these rights and offer confidence to many women across Scotland.

I will also seek clarity on the operation of the Equality Act with the GRR Bill. In order to seek this balance, I support three key areas of amendment and development.

Guarantee of the Equality Act (2010)
The protections guaranteed in the Equality Act must be made explicit in this new law. The guarantee of sex-based rights, women’s spaces and services must be retained, and Scottish women must have the confidence that they are being retained. Doing so will require amendment at Stage Two or Stage Three of the parliamentary process. Scottish Labour is committed to pursuing these amendments.

Process safeguards
Confidence in the new process for obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate is paramount. Trans people should know that the process commands their own confidence and that of the wider public. The Bill as drafted has very few safeguards to prevent it being abused by bad actors. Scottish Labour believes that consideration should be given to how the application process can be strengthened in order to command broad public confidence. I personally believe that a counter-signatory process would help to build this confidence meaning that applications are not made in solitary isolation. The comparable process would be changes to passports to which all citizens must adhere when amending personal details. The signature of another person is widely accepted and supported in this process and is a standard part of our day to day life. Such a signatory process, properly developed and implemented, would serve to better protect all parties.

Age of applicants
The bill currently proposes the reduction of the age restriction for GRC applications from 18 to 16 years. The Government has made a poor job to date of answering questions posed in this area, including those from the Equalities and Human Rights Commission and I don’t believe there is widespread support for this change.

Many people are portraying this debate as too heated, too toxic and too polarised to ever be resolved. That is a council of despair which, if accepted, will only result in poor law and poorer outcomes. I believe that, with the significant amendments laid out above, a ground can be found that commands broader and vital public support.

I thank you for your correspondence and for making your position known to me. I hope that the above makes clear to you the approach I am taking as your MSP. I can assure you that I have taken on board the many representations made to me in considering this legislation.

maltravers · 10/11/2022 12:19

MagnoliaTaint · 24/10/2022 09:04

Emma Roddick, SNP:

'I can hopefully provide you with some reassurance first off that the Equality Act is not being changed by the upcoming Bill.
The Scottish Government cannot change the Equality Act as it is specifically reserved to the UK Parliament.
GRCs do not act as a pass for single-sex services and the reasonable exclusion of trans people which the Equality Act allows for is unchanged by the Bill.'

I don’t see how the position being taken by some of the SNP mps to their constituents (that they can confirm GRCs will not act as an entry ticket to SSS) is consistent with the position being taken by counsel for the ScotGov in the JR currently playing out on Tribunal Tweets this morning (which seems to be that GRCs do indeed give TW an entry ticket to women’s SSS). How is this dual position acceptable? Are they misrepresenting matters to their constituents (before a key vote) or to the tribunal (in a key case)?

maltravers · 10/11/2022 12:32

Tribunal Tweets
@tribunaltweets
·
2h
RC: it's for all purposes the GRC has that effect. That person with GRC, if that person has gender of female that person sex becomes that of a woman and she will share that PC with other women.

See for instance the above where PC is “protected characteristic” (under the Equalities Act).

Whereareyourshoes · 12/11/2022 07:44

maltravers · 10/11/2022 12:19

I don’t see how the position being taken by some of the SNP mps to their constituents (that they can confirm GRCs will not act as an entry ticket to SSS) is consistent with the position being taken by counsel for the ScotGov in the JR currently playing out on Tribunal Tweets this morning (which seems to be that GRCs do indeed give TW an entry ticket to women’s SSS). How is this dual position acceptable? Are they misrepresenting matters to their constituents (before a key vote) or to the tribunal (in a key case)?

Yes they are making it up as they go. It all starts with one little lie that men can actually become women and women can actually become men and then keeps escalating. Twisting words and meanings until they mean everything and nothing.

Waitwhat23 · 12/11/2022 10:20

Please consider writing to your Labour MSP's to ask them to support the following amendments -.

twitter.com/WRNScotland/status/1591358320082026498?s=20&t=Z-tDmlOAO__2J17NGr7dAQ

wesayno · 28/11/2022 22:00

Received today (lol what is even the point?), from our favourite Green troll.

On behalf of P Harvie:

Thank you for your email to Patrick Harvie MSP regarding the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill and my apologies for the delayed response.

Patrick Harvie and the Scottish Green Party wholeheartedly support the rights of trans people, including that of self-identification. Trans rights and women’s rights are not in conflict, as all humans have the same human rights. The human rights of minority groups should not be open to debate and interpretation, they should be accepted.

The Scottish Green MSPs stand firmly for inclusive, intersectional feminism which recognises the intersectional nature of power which creates additional barriers for women facing multiple discriminations. You can read more about this here: greens.scot/womens-pledge

In the cooperation agreement between the Scottish Greens and the Scottish Government we agreed to reform the Gender Recognition Act to establish a more straightforward system for obtaining legal gender recognition for trans people. Trans people should not have to go through a degrading, traumatic and intrusive process to be legally recognised in their gender.

I hope that you agree that we must do more to improve the lives of the trans community who have been the target of a hate campaign for the past few years.

Kind regards,

[Name] | she/her

HopRockers · 28/11/2022 23:05

The human rights of minority groups should not be open to debate and interpretation, they should be accepted. unless they're women who want single sex spaces

[Name] | she/her 🤣🤣🤣 gold

Nice of Patriarch Harvey to diene to reply I suppose - I'm still waiting to hear from my SNP-bots