Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Autism and gender dysphoria - whack-a-mole?

55 replies

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/10/2022 14:59

Came upon this:

Fortunato A, Giovanardi G, Innocenzi E, Mirabella M, Caviglia G, Lingiardi V, Speranza AM. Is It Autism? A Critical Commentary on the Co-Occurrence of Gender Dysphoria and Autism Spectrum Disorder. J Homosex. 2022 Jun 7;69(7):1204-1221. doi: 10.1080/00918369.2021.1905385. Epub 2021 Apr 14. PMID: 33852376.

From the abstract:
"We hypothesize that the traits often classified as autistic could be more accurately related to the distress and discomfort evoked by GD."

The journal doesn't look like a journal of psychatry or autism. I can only see the abstract from here pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33852376/ but I think that this bit "to provide, through the description of a clinical case, our reading and a possible interpretation of the correlation of these two conditions" means that they are talking about just one patient.

OP posts:
KatMcBundleFace · 10/10/2022 15:56

So if there theory is correct "ASD" behaviours would disappear with transition?

Hmmmmmmm....

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/10/2022 16:44

I just found the whole paper here. www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918369.2021.1905385

They re-did the diagnostic test after social transition.

"After repeating the evaluation with the same procedure (using the ADOS), the psychiatrist affirmed that a diagnosis of autism no longer existed. Cheerfully, he asked the therapist, “So, is it possible to recover from autism?” It is noteworthy that in the following session, Oscar reported that his parents had finally asked him if he wanted to be called by a male name."

To be fair it is quite nuanced but there's still a lot to make a reader queasy.

And finally there is this: (my emphasis)

  1. Angela/Oscar, now 18, gave his consent to publish this article, read it and approved it.

Well who knows how that will all pan out in the long run.

OP posts:
Datun · 10/10/2022 16:46

It's not the first time I've seen organisations claiming that transitioning cures autism.

Hoardasurass · 10/10/2022 16:50

As a asd woman with an asd child this pseudo scscience bullshit really pisses me off you can't "cure " asd it's caused by structural differences in the brain ffs
As for transing the asd away is dangerous eugenics bs

FemaleAndLearning · 10/10/2022 16:56

Yet professor Tony Attwood works renowned autism expert says transitioning does not 'cure' autism.

Transgender Trend have produced a really in depth study on autism and gender questioning.
www.transgendertrend.com/autism-gender-identity-introduction/
Even the National Autistic Society hasn't bothered researching but just affirms.
Personally I think autistic children are more susceptible to gender questioning due to their autism but I've been called ableist for suggesting that, implying that I think autistic children are in capable of making decisions. Masking, especially for girls and wanting to fit in are a massive part of their autism. I am constantly telling people it is not cause and affect otherwise all autistic people would be trans. Parents in the community seem to thrive on transing their children and adding another thing to their growing list of problems with their children. The victim parent. I'm mum to one diagnosed autistic daughter and one waiting for assessment.

FemaleAndLearning · 10/10/2022 16:57

World renowned not works!

FemaleAndLearning · 10/10/2022 17:03

Article by Attwood linked in this thread. I have seen a link to non pay walk will do more digging.www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3936950-Prof-Tony-Attwood-gender-change-is-no-fix-for-autism

FunnyTalks · 10/10/2022 17:13

Anecdotal, but I've met kids whose parents have sought cures for autism and disabilities. Always offered by very fundamentalist Christian churches. Who, I'd guess, are also places one might find gay conversion therapies.

Gender ideology really does seem to operate as a fundamentalist religion.

Potplanta · 10/10/2022 17:22

FemaleAndLearning · 10/10/2022 16:56

Yet professor Tony Attwood works renowned autism expert says transitioning does not 'cure' autism.

Transgender Trend have produced a really in depth study on autism and gender questioning.
www.transgendertrend.com/autism-gender-identity-introduction/
Even the National Autistic Society hasn't bothered researching but just affirms.
Personally I think autistic children are more susceptible to gender questioning due to their autism but I've been called ableist for suggesting that, implying that I think autistic children are in capable of making decisions. Masking, especially for girls and wanting to fit in are a massive part of their autism. I am constantly telling people it is not cause and affect otherwise all autistic people would be trans. Parents in the community seem to thrive on transing their children and adding another thing to their growing list of problems with their children. The victim parent. I'm mum to one diagnosed autistic daughter and one waiting for assessment.

I spoke to an autistic woman recently who is GC and said autistic young people are more likely to believe in gender ID because they tend to grab on to new interests and become obsessive.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/10/2022 17:33

As a asd woman with an asd child this pseudo scscience bullshit really pisses me off you can't "cure " asd it's caused by structural differences in the brain ffs

The argument in the paper was not so much that the autism was cured, it was that it was misdiagnosed because the symptoms were exacerbated by mismanaged gender dysphoria. And so when the gender dysphoria was "fixed" by affirmation and social transition, the symptoms were relieved to the point where they no longer showed up on ADOS. So not exactly a cure, more a confusion or disagreement about causes versus symptoms.

But it may still count as "pseudoscience bullshit" because "hypothesising about a case study" easily shifts into "speculating about an anecdote".

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 10/10/2022 17:37

Looks like they are trying to justify sterilising autistics.

In my circles, I have an autistic teen daughter, more and more autistic girls are identifying as transgender.

Anyone who raises a concern is branded a transphobe and excluded.

I've been removed from one support group for expressing concern.

It's really heartbreaking when you can see this happening in front of your eyes but can't speak out.

lifeturnsonadime · 10/10/2022 17:39

And I'd love to know how being misgendered causes sensory processing and communication difficulties which is the implication of this paper.

BoardLikeAMirror · 10/10/2022 17:39

I am autistic and I can say with cast-iron certainty that I do not and have never had gender dysphoria.

lifeturnsonadime · 10/10/2022 17:44

I spoke to an autistic woman recently who is GC and said autistic young people are more likely to believe in gender ID because they tend to grab on to new interests and become obsessive.

I believe this is true I also believe that if young people who are desperately trying to fit in can suddenly find that they are part of a 'cool club' then this must be massively appealing.

My daughter wears boys clothes because she can't stand the feel or the cut of girls clothes.

She doesn't understand the social chit chat of most girls.

Doesn't make her a boy. If she did claim to be a boy it wouldn't make her autism go away.

This shit makes my blood boil, and you see it with camhs when a girl who doesn't adhere with gender stereotypes rocks up they are almost desperate to refer to gids. At least they were. Not sure if it's the same now in the light of the Cass report.

ChampagneCamping · 10/10/2022 18:02

people with autism can see things black and white. For example, if someone likes ballet and the colour pink, they must be a girl.

it’s also very easy to hang all issues on one hook (trans) to explain autism difficulties . I have known 6 people with autism transition but the autism remains the same

BlackeyedSusan · 10/10/2022 18:05

BoardLikeAMirror · 10/10/2022 17:39

I am autistic and I can say with cast-iron certainty that I do not and have never had gender dysphoria.

Me neither!

IvyTwines · 10/10/2022 18:20

Look up the so-called 'Lupron Protocol', touted as a 'miracle treatment' for autism by a father son team, Dr Mark and David Geier, in the USA in the 2000s.
('Miracle Drug Called Junk Science', Chicago Tribune 21st May 2009.) It's a long piece but this quote stood out:

"Simon Baron-Cohen, a professor of developmental psychopathology at the University of Cambridge in England and director of the Autism Research Center in Cambridge, said it is irresponsible to treat autistic children with Lupron.

"The idea of using it with vulnerable children with autism, who do not have a life-threatening disease and pose no danger to anyone, without a careful trial to determine the unwanted side effects or indeed any benefits, fills me with horror," he said.

Experts in childhood hormones warn that Lupron can disrupt normal development, interfering with natural puberty and potentially putting children's heart and bones at risk. The treatment also means subjecting children to daily injections, including painful shots deep into muscle every other week."

The article continues, parents accusing the doctors of using children as "guinea pigs". It all sounds very familiar. Dr Mark Geier was subsequently struck off. What's going on now feels rather like the Lupron Protocol repackaged in rainbow colours.

FemaleAndLearning · 10/10/2022 19:12

Found a link to the article. archive.ph/1cyz1 you will have to copy and paste I think.

I too have had to leave parental support groups as I am a bigot and transphobe for suggesting watchful waiting which some parents take to mean don't do anything. They will not tolerate Transgender Trend being mentioned.

Autistic children do have special interests. For boys these generally remain the same throughout their life. For girls these can change quite often, it is the intensity of the interest that makes it an autistic trait.
Another trait is sensory overload from clothes and hair. Girls may cut their hair short and wear baggy clothes to reduce these sensory issues. Someone says are you trans and off they go.
Some autistic girls can suffer terribly with their changing bodies and periods some of this is the actual change and unpredictability say of breast pain for others it is that periods can be one big sensory nightmare.
Autistics tend to be very literal and have black and white thinking. If society is suggesting sterotypes based on looks it is a logical step to think they are trans.
Once an idea has formed it takes off almost like an obsession and is their new special interest.
They may even gain kudos by being the right kind of different instead of the strange autistic one. Girls particularly will mask a lot, their gender identity becomes their new mask to show the world they are okay, but behind closed doors they will not be okay.
I agree with other posters we are allowing autistic girls to be sterilised. It is a disgrace.

PhilistineWazzock · 10/10/2022 19:39

I thought that ADOS was not as good for diagnosing girls as it is based on typical male ASD traits - hence DISCO being better practice for females. Surely better science would have done both diagnostic tests before and after transition. I mean, it's not science that's being done here.

Maltester71 · 10/10/2022 20:00

The disco and ados are totally different. You need to use both ideally

FemaleAndLearning · 10/10/2022 20:26

ADOS assessment isn't suitable for girls. Not sure about DISCO. My daughter who is diagnosed had neither of these assessments.
I wonder how the authors take account of masking before and after? The long term follow up will be very interesting.

Gobbolinothekitchencat · 10/10/2022 21:26

Being flippant, it would certainly benefit the SEN budget locally if 0 to 25 people with an autism diagnosis could be moved over to health budget for their medications. Would reduce the year plus waiting lists for specialist placements and probably reduce the number of injuries to others who are in the path of overwhelmed autistic youngsters who lash out in their distress. Wouldn’t have to provide specialist teaching or inventions as they wouldn’t be needs as they would be completely NT. And brilliant for reducing the ASD pathways waiting list (about three years if lucky).

Maltester71 · 11/10/2022 00:22

Ados is perfectly suitable for girls if administered by somebody who understands how girls present.

Queuesarasarah · 11/10/2022 00:43

Outrageous! So now as well as all the other seriously problematic things about transitioning teens, it’s a quack fake autism cure too!
Its serious confirmation bias. There has essenitly concluded that because there are a disproportionate percentage of autistic children experiencing gender disphoria, it shows that gender disophoria is making children seem autistic. Rather than the other (more likely) scenario!

GCautist · 11/10/2022 01:26

Firstly, I wish people would stop making blanket statements about what autistic people do and don’t, can and can’t do. I am formally diagnosed as autistic and I, and many others that I know, do not fit the stereotypes people push here. /rant

I did have gender dysphoria of sorts growing up. I do understand when someone who happens to be neurodivergent feels so completely at odds with what society says is a girl/woman on top of not being neurotypical that when transition is offered as a solution, they jump at the chance. I think if I was growing up now I’d have seriously considered it because I do not and never did identify with femininity. The female parts of my body growing up were redundant (I never planned on having children) and just a hindrance. Boobs brought unwanted attention and periods made and still make my life hell for 2/4 weeks. Of course being offered a solution to these things when we already feel so different to our peers seems like a route out of everything that’s wrong. Who wouldn’t accept that if offered?

And the queer community are so welcoming and among their own they present kindness and acceptance. We know as rational adults that may not always be true but when you are vulnerable, in despair and youre desperate to understand the overwhelming sense of confusion and feeling out of place, they give you quick answers and slightly slower solutions.

Would living as a boy/man have cured my autism? No! But the pressures of society to conform to femininity might have been relieved for a while. I wanted to be male, I recognised early on my life would have been easier male, even just peeing standing up was something I felt would have made my life easier. I was obsessed
with willies because I wanted one and didn’t have one.

As autistic kids we learn and recognise very early on that life is going to be really difficult for us in a way it isn’t for our peers. When a group of people welcome us, quirks and all it’s hugely attractive. It isn’t that autism is cured, it’s that as a community they’ll accept your autistic traits and they blend into a gamut of diverse traits.

I’m too scared to say what I really think on here for fear of losing my account. It’s not at all phobic, more observational but that’s not how it gets portrayed by activists. So I’ll say, I think neurodivergent traits makes us stand out and our need to be loved and accepted makes us trusting of those who say they will love and accept us as we are, all the while offering a solution to what we perceive to be the problem and in essence changing who we are. All the talk of gender makes it an easy target.

In the end I learned to accept my meatsuit. It fails me in so many ways that whether I was presenting as a man or a woman, I still would
have a sick, imperfect body and could not be fixed. I’m glad I grew up in an era where challenging gender stereotypes was a thing, allowing me to accept a kind of separation between my neurotype and my physical body.

Rather than these ridiculous and outrageous pseudo-scientific claims maybe if wider society were more accepting of difference, and quirks and weirdness and we didn’t teach girls to oust those that do not fit certain ideas of normal maybe fewer autistic girls would
consider transition a “cure”.

Some of the negative elements of autism can be minimised by creating an environment that accepts and supports the autistic person. It will never go away but living a life suited to your own specific neurotype can make life seem easier, the queer community have done well in that respect, certainly better than wider society. That certain sections have hijacked it for their own purposes is why there’s such a huge backlash against those of us who are GC and are wary of their tactics.