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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How was your gender transition?

35 replies

MilesOfCarpetTiles · 06/10/2022 10:43

NC but am a regular on here.

I'd previously assumed that 'transitioning' meant, essentially, a person who very much wanted to be perceived as the opposite sex taking on - usually, not always - stereotypically culturally masculine or feminine aspects of appearance to assist with this perception (clothes, hair, make-up, etc), although I also realise that transitioning can be simply a change of name and requested pronouns. I have sympathy with people who are deeply unhappy with the sex of their bodies, as well as people who feel they do not appear feminine or masculine 'enough' for society to accept them, so this is in no way a dig at them but an exploration of what I have learned.

Reading Bristol Council's proposed Trans Inclusion and Gender Identity Policy at
www.ask.bristol.gov.uk/trans-inclusion-and-gender-diversity-policy-consultation -
(essentially, to help trans people, they want to make all single-sex spaces mixed-sex and you can 'choose' the one you prefer - the consultation is open for a few more days if you feel there are safety or dignity issues with this - however, the policy does already state that "Whilst some people may feel less comfortable because they do not accept transgender identity or perceive that trans people pose an increased safeguarding risk to others, this is not itself a legitimate or proportionate reason to exclude trans and gender-diverse people from using preferred toilets and facilities.", so you would need to correct the false assumption that the objection is to 'being trans' rather than to a person's biological sex) -

I realise that 'trans' also includes 'agender', defined as: "a term for individuals who are genderless or who reject gender identification completely." Reading their guidance, I clearly identify with this - some years ago I would have said I was a 'cis' woman but educating myself made me realise this is not a label I'm at all comfortable with, and as I reject gender identification, agender appears to match what I am.

Their definition of gender is as follows:

"People often use the terms ‘gender’ and ‘sex’ interchangeably when talking about a person being male or female, or masculine or feminine. However, ‘sex’ is recorded at birth and refers to a person’s biological status as either male or female, based on their physical attributes and external anatomy.

‘Gender’ refers to the characteristics typically associated with being feminine or masculine that are constructed by society. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy etc. as well as relationships with each other. Ways of understanding gender vary from society to society and can change over time. Gender identity is our own internal and individual sense of self as being feminine, masculine, a mixture of these, or rejecting current gender norms entirely."

I'm still a woman, as far as I can tell, as that means either 'female' or something else I'm unsure of. So if asked my sex, I would say I am a woman or female, but if asked about my gender I would say I am agender. Others may view my behaviour as masculine or feminine, but I believe that is irrelevant to anyone's sex, and that linking types of behaviour to sex is often sexist, regressive and not borne out by evidence. I don't believe that what 'society constructs' has much to do with my own individual sense of self - I have very little control over how others see me and judge my behaviour, except I suppose my clothes or haircut.

Bristol's policy clearly states that 'Transitioning’ is a term used to describe the steps an individual takes in order to live in their affirmed gender identity, which may be as a man, woman, non-binary, gender fluid or a-gender person.

'The steps' I have taken were more of an internal realisation rather than a deliberate change to my appearance - I don't personally believe my gender identity or lack of changes depending on what I feel like wearing - but it does appear that I have transitioned from a cis person to an agender one (although perhaps I was agender all along).

Is anyone else in the same boat? Do you feel comfortable as agender, even though that may be incorrectly presumed to mean you don't believe you have a sex? Do I need to tell my employer or anyone else?

OP posts:
NotAHouse · 06/10/2022 13:58

stillsmilingtoday · 06/10/2022 11:28

I had a visceral reaction to this in that it is such insane level of naval-gazing that I can't believe people waste their time thinking about it and I can't believe that anyone expects anyone else to care about about it.

Then I thought that since I do reject gender 'identification' in so far as believing I am a woman, on a biological basis, with female and masculine traits (I call this my personality), then that would make me 'agender', according to Bristol City Council.

However just because Bristol City Council gives this 'agender' definition, this doesn't make this definition true. Why are you taking it at face value?

I am a woman, I do reject gender identity based on outdated stereotypes, and I am not agender!

Thank god / goddess / gxd, I was thinking exactly the same thing.

NO ONE CARES WHAT MYSTERIOUS GENDER SPECTRUM YOU THINK YOU'RE ON

MilesOfCarpetTiles · 06/10/2022 14:09

NO ONE CARES WHAT MYSTERIOUS GENDER SPECTRUM YOU THINK YOU'RE ON

So you're saying the policy won't be enacted? The Council have already resolved:

1.To recognise and affirm trans men are men, trans women are women,
non-binary and genderqueer people's genders are valid, and trans rights
are human rights.

  1. Facilitate and strongly encourage all council staff and Councillors to
attend training to learn about the challenges faced by trans people.
  1. Fly the trans flag on the International Trans Day of Visibility (31st
March), International Non-Binary People's Day (14th July) and Trans Day of Remembrance (20th November)
  1. Write to the Secretary of State for Health and Adult Social Care to call
for the government to: · Provide the funding and resources necessary to increase the capacity of and improve access to trans and non-binary healthcare, including expanding gender identity services and reducing waiting times. · Develop strategies to recruit more clinicians to become gender identity specialists across all relevant disciplines and train staff across the NHS on issues affecting trans and non-binary people. · Commit to effectively and regularly consulting trans and nonbinary people and groups in the design and delivery of trans and non-binary healthcare.
  1. To work with all four Bristol MPs to help coordinate joint cross-party
initiatives within parliament to bring forward a full ban on conversion therapy that includes gender identity.
  1. To continue supporting the improvement of services in Bristol to be
fully accessible to trans and non-binary people, working with recognised trans-inclusive services and not taking advice from or awarding contracts to organisations that promote an anti-trans agenda or propaganda.
  1. Conduct an audit of Council services to ensure they are as accessible as
possible to trans and non-binary people.
  1. Look into what we can do as a Council as an employer to support
further those who identify as trans and non-binary and to protect them from transphobic harassment within their roles.
  1. To ensure there are accessible gender-neutral toilet facilities throughout
the City (including within Council buildings) and to ensure there are menstrual care dispensers and sanitary bins in all toilets, regardless of gender. This includes municipal-run toilets and toilet facilities under its Full Council – Agenda ‘Community Toilet Scheme’.
  1. Encourage schools to follow expert legal guidance outlined by the
    Good Law Project. That it will consider publishing a ‘Trans Inclusion
    Toolkit’ for our schools (as available in Brighton). That it will act on any
    known instances of anti-trans literature or propaganda being sent into our
    schools. That it recognises that beliefs such as that of ‘gender critical’ can
    be protected, however this does not provide the right to express those
    beliefs and will not allow this as a lever for hate speech and bullying in the
    school estate.

  2. To write to the Home Secretary calling for:
    ● An action plan on tackling LGBTQIA+ Hate Crimes within the UK.
    ● Prevented deportation of LGBTQIA+ refugees to Rwanda and a
    review into applications for LGBTQIA+ refugees claiming asylum
    status within the UK.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4584395-bristol-council-goes-for-broke

It would be good if gender wasn't being written into policy, but it is.

OP posts:
Live4weekend · 06/10/2022 15:18

So if you are agender, and you want single sex facilities, they you have as much right to demand that these facilities are single sex. As much right, according to Bristol Council, as a Transwoman who is demanding they be mixed sex (although I am not sure Transwoman will ever accept you having the same level of rights as them).

So if Bristol Council ignore your demands, they are discriminating against you on the basis of your gender and that is transphobia?

Apologies if this has been covered, not read the full thread.

KittyKlaws · 06/10/2022 15:21

MilesOfCarpetTiles · 06/10/2022 13:55

The more they try and explain gender, the more it seems like it fits my own definition of 'how the world expects you to look and behave in a masculine or feminine way solely because of your sex' which I'd always been brought up to believe is a thing that is unhelpful and patriarchal and inevitably harms women, and men?

Yet they propose to categorise people in this way in situations where biological sex matters?

Indeed, it really doesn't work or make sense to make spaces and legislate on what amounts to personality traits.

BreatheAndFocus · 06/10/2022 15:54

I’m not agender. That’s a category in a belief system that I don’t believe in. I would just say that I don’t believe in gender identity. Toilets should be organised by sex not gender identity, zodiac signs, personality, etc etc.

MangyInseam · 06/10/2022 16:07

MilesOfCarpetTiles · 06/10/2022 13:55

The more they try and explain gender, the more it seems like it fits my own definition of 'how the world expects you to look and behave in a masculine or feminine way solely because of your sex' which I'd always been brought up to believe is a thing that is unhelpful and patriarchal and inevitably harms women, and men?

Yet they propose to categorise people in this way in situations where biological sex matters?

But it's not even that, a lot of the time. The world in many cases see,s way more accepting of variation than what these ideas propose. I mean, no one bats an eye at women who wear pants or no make-up, no one cares about men who cook, lots of boys play with dolls sometimes, lots of girls play sports.

The vast majority of people don't consider these things especially gendered.

Sparklybutold · 06/10/2022 16:19

@MilesOfCarpetTiles

I feel these debates end up going around in circles. There are spaces that are needed to reflect sex-based differences. By extension these spaces should be differentiated and clearly labelled for tg function they serve. Toilet facilities, female changing rooms, shelters, female specific medical clinics should have nothing to do with someones identity but the purpose they serve - menstruation, needing to sit down/crouch, often having kids to take care of for female looks, female shelters owing to the raw statistics that show women are more often the victims of male perpwtrated violence, medical clinics because women have breasts, uteruses, services, vulvars etc and therefore require specialist medical input.

Gender identity andidelovy has completely bulldozed these spaces all in the name of their own needs without any respect for why these female only spaces exist in the first place.

Sparklybutold · 06/10/2022 16:21

And then to top it off. Anyone who states this fact are transphobic.

Wellies54 · 06/10/2022 17:47

Who on earth has written all of that? Gender critical beliefs are valid but must never be spoken aloud!!! Non-binary health care - what is that?! Should everyone be offered a smear test regardless of anatomy?! And in what way are trans people and non-binary people being excluded from normal services? Are their bins not being collected?

I definitely would refuse to define myself in any gender related way - until they can write a description of what any gender actually is which makes the slightest bit of sense.

DoubleDuvetDay · 06/10/2022 18:05

MilesOfCarpetTiles · 06/10/2022 11:11

So would you say you accept that you have a gender identity, or that you reject this?
Because if you reject gender identification, Bristol City Council says that falls under the definition of 'agender', like me!

When asked to select gender on a form I select other and type
Gender is a social construct to which I do not prescribe. If by gender you actually mean sex then I am an adult human female (woman)

And if it is my GP when I am ordering my HRT I add. Why is 'gender' relevant to my medical treatment but biological sex is not?

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