Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Boys are a handful"

55 replies

Pregnantabroad · 05/10/2022 10:55

I get this comment a lot, casually, from parents of boys. Equally I hear things like "girls are complicated" or "girls are difficult".
My personal experience (I have both boys and a girl) is that they are pretty similar.
I also believe that there is no fundamental difference between girls and boys other than how they are shaped by society. Assuming you agree - and am happy to hear those who don't agree too obv - what kind of response would you make to those throwaway comments to gently challenge the idea that girls and boys are fundamentally different?

OP posts:
MissMaple82 · 05/10/2022 12:22

Goldbar · 05/10/2022 12:10

It's hard to know what comes first, the chicken or the egg. Boys are socialised differently from birth - there is research showing that caregivers are more responsive and have more interactions with girl babies, but will encourage boy babies to be more active and (later on) to take more risks. Since it is these early interactions which 'wire' children's brains, it's perhaps unsurprising that often quite young boys appear to be wired differently from girls.

What research please? I'd like to read it

SuperCamp · 05/10/2022 12:23

Even if there is an evidenced ‘bigger picture’ average difference between girls and boys, this kind of generalised sexist nonsense applied to individual children just exacerbates and enforces a stereotype.

Which becomes self perpetuating.

jellyfrizz · 05/10/2022 12:25

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 11:19

I probably would’ve taken the same position as you at one stage but now (over 20 years of parenting experience, 1 son, 2 daughters, 3 sets of parent-friends - one for each kid - all of whose other children, male and female I have witnessed growing up) I do believe there are tangible differences between the sexes almost from birth.

we are mammals, after all, and sexual dimorphism is a thing.

However, it’s a bell curve thingy and so there is a lot of overlap, and all children are unique so there is absolutely no reason to confine individuals to pink or blue boxes painted with the broad brush of sex stereotypes.

Sex differences exist but that doesn’t mean boys are better than girls.

The idea that boys and girls were exactly the same and it’s all just nurture/socialisation was an important concept for achieving work based rights for women but it’s also had the unfortunate side effect of ‘girls would be just as strong/fast as boys if they had better training/more money invested in their sports divisions’ and that’s just not true.

As an example, the reasoning behind ‘men should not hit women’ isn’t benevolent sexism, it’s because on average men are bigger and stronger and more likely to inflict serious damage on a female body than if the same man were to hit a male body with exactly the same force (see all the stats re women being injured in car crashes as an illustrator).

The reason we need single sex spaces and services and sex based rights in the workplace is because we are a sexually dimorphic species and that isn’t going to change.

I assumed the OP was talking about behavioural/psychological differences rather than physical differences.

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 12:29

Any inborn differences are definitely exaggerated by society. This is what feminists have called ‘male socialisation’ and ‘female socialisation’.

I tend to return to ‘is this behaviour demonstrated in our nearest mammalian relatives? Ie the other Great Apes?’ when trying to figure out what is nature and what is nuture.

Boys being more into rough and tumble play (due to being stronger than girls and thus less afraid of injury/less need for self protection?) is something that occurs cross species, whereas as stuff like clothing differences (girls in pink with less sturdy shoes!) obviously does not, and in humans it often begins before the child is old enough to display any interest, so it’s an adult projection onto the child…

But then I tend to think of extremely gendered dressing as something that has arisen as part of human-mate attraction/sexual signalling - hence Saturday night nightclubs being all
high heels, short skirts and false eyelashes for the women and tight v neck t shirts designed for maximum-muscle-display and fake tan for the chaps.
Whereas at home on Sunday morning both sexes are probably wearing near-identical baggy sweatpants and hoodies!

(and gender nonconformity within same sex attracted groups can function similarly, although perhaps in a more complex, more nuanced, distinctively subcultural way).

If we were more like other mammals we could discard all the weird gendered dressing and just sniff each other’s bottoms 🙀 but as we are the only species that routinely conceals our primary sex characteristics (genitals) we’ve evolved (?) to have some noticeable secondary sex characteristics (female breasts and hips/thighs, male facial + body hair, male deep voices, significant height differences etc) and then we further exaggerate those secondary characteristics for mate-attraction (and date night with our existing partners).

look at traditional weddings for the most obvious example - bet your average bride and groom both wear jeans on a normal Saturday, but she’s now wearing a white gown and him a dark suit!

(obvs same sex couples disrupt this a bit and there is no expectation for a bride-bride couple to both wear dresses, but most groom-groom couples do wear suits, often with more colour/texture variation than grooms marrying brides).

All just idle thoughts, really.

My main takeaway from it all as a parent is that we should try our best not to project onto small children and encourage them to develop their own interests and tastes, whilst being aware enough of the bell curve averages to use it to our advantage (a heads up on what might be to come) without using it to limit our children or freak ourselves out when our own children are outliers.

Statistics and averages are for societal forward planning (what services is this population likely to need in future?) rather than a parenting manual.

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 12:31

I assumed the OP was talking about behavioural/psychological differences rather than physical differences.

In your opinion, is there no relationship between the two?

MapleLeafForever · 05/10/2022 12:37

But those statements aren't necessariily implying that they are fixed, biological, inherent differences, nor that they are going to be true for all boys or all girls.

It might be true that many boys are a handful, because of socialisation to be boisterous, rebellious, confident etc, and some of those expectations also mean behaviour that is challenging in particular ways.

And girls have a hugely complex and changing role in society, and are socialised in a way that can mean interesting friendship dynamics, conflicts between different expectations, etc., and thus managing their emotional and social behaviours could indeed be often more complicated than it might be for boys.

It doesn't mean it applies to all boys or girls, and it doesn't mean that it's an inherent difference between them, but sometimes things like that are a perfectly valid observation of what it tendds to be like in the current society for raising boys are girls.

So I think it's important to be careful not to read too much into what is being said, and to not assume that they are saying that boys and girls are fundamentally wired different in an unchanging biologically-determined way (in terms of behaviour and personality, obviously, not physically!). But in many ways, their experiences and socialisation does produce different challenges, and it's fair enough to acknowledge some common experiences like that (whilst at the same time, being careful to not perpetuate the idea that it's inbuilt, or that all girls/boys will be like that to the extent that people end up seeing what they expect to see).

Nottodaty · 05/10/2022 12:44

I have two daughters they are completely different.

1 laid back & to be honesty quite easy - the odd teenage tantrum.

The other one a ball of wow - she is strong willed, has no fear and will challenge you. She is only just 13 so definitely in for a bumpy road.

My sister has one of each and if you asked her 6 months ago she would say boys easier - her daughter was tough now she is 18 and everything seems easier. Her son was lovely…..then he went to high school (14) and he is a nightmare, she is going through a tough time. She now says it’s just parenting in general is really tough!!

SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · 05/10/2022 12:48

I think there's so much socialisation that we don't even realise, we and the kids are bathed in it from birth.

We moved around a lot when younger, so my kids were very, very heavily influenced by me rather than by carers, friends, family members, TV shows etc. and TBH it shows a bit - whilst they're both as different from each other as chalk and cheese, they are also both calmer and generally less boisterous than most of the boys in their class (obviously there's a couple of similar boys, and some boisterous girls too). They enjoy quiet time, as much as they love running around the house, cooking as much as computer games etc.

We shape what normal is for our children, along with everything else around them, and they respond to it.

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 12:53

Nottodaty · 05/10/2022 12:44

I have two daughters they are completely different.

1 laid back & to be honesty quite easy - the odd teenage tantrum.

The other one a ball of wow - she is strong willed, has no fear and will challenge you. She is only just 13 so definitely in for a bumpy road.

My sister has one of each and if you asked her 6 months ago she would say boys easier - her daughter was tough now she is 18 and everything seems easier. Her son was lovely…..then he went to high school (14) and he is a nightmare, she is going through a tough time. She now says it’s just parenting in general is really tough!!

my sister and I were like your daughters!

We’ve both ended up in very similar places as adults (education, finances & family size-wise) but I took a much longer, more dramatic route 🤣

Birth order supposedly also has enough influence to show average patterns - is your wilder daughter the younger one?

I have often observed the most well-behaved children becoming the most-difficult-of-teens, but I have never looked to see if that’s a phenomenon observed in any scientific studies - it does make me wary of how easy my third child has been so far tho!

MissyB1 · 05/10/2022 13:04

I think I bucked a lot of the trends with my 3 boys. I wasn’t consciously doing any kind of gender neutral thing, I just didn’t buy into the whole “tough tough boy” thing. There was no play fighting/ wrestling, no aggressive toys. Mainly because I just don’t like that, and they weren’t that bothered. We did lots of small world and imaginative play. I encouraged communication and empathy. Crying was definitely not seen as negative!

They were fairly calm and thoughtful boys. Was it because I didn’t encourage the gender stereotype? I don’t know but possibly….

newrubylane · 05/10/2022 13:06

I have boy/girl twins aged 3.5. We have both 'boy' and 'girl' toys but they honestly do both play with both and we have really tried not to encourage/discourage things except based on their preferences at any given moment. My daughter doesn't inherently prefer the 'girls toys', and actually plays in a very varied and imaginative way with almost everything. My son is very keen on vehicles and balls, but will play with everything as well. Personality wise they are very different as well, in some ways like their sex stereotypes and in some ways not. My instinct is that there are certainly differences between children that are innate rather than purely down to socialisation. In some cases their sex may be an influencing factor, but I don't think it's necessarily an overriding factor. All in all it's just a nature/nurture/genetics/socialisation melting pot, I reckon. It would be nigh on impossible to untangle it fully, but I wouldn't dismiss the influence of sex entirely.

MangyInseam · 05/10/2022 13:57

Individual variation isn't really all that relevant though. Especially within a single family - siblings often have quite a lot in common temperamentally.

If we are talking about population differences you need to look at larger numbers.

sourgreenplums · 05/10/2022 15:27

Personally I believe that if we look at us as a species, across different cultures, there will be differences between male and female children, but the overlap will be considerable. I think this because of 3 things
. Firstly the interaction between groups of all girls is very different to that of all boys from being very young. If you were to watch preschool children interact, without being able to tell if they were boys or girls, you would notice the difference.
Secondly in boy/girl twins the girl child invariably is "ahead" of her brother, up until a certain a free when they level up.
Thirdly, the way SEN presents itself. The reasons behind why girls are less likely to be diagnosed than boys.
This in no way means that either girls or boys are better, more intelligent, kinder more empathetic than each other, just that on a whole they do present slightly differently as a group, rather than as individuals.

LaughingPriest · 05/10/2022 15:54

arethereanyleftatall · 05/10/2022 11:42

I think there are differences, not for all, but as general rules of thumb. Before they have a chance to even be remotely affected by society, so I'm talking 1 or 2 years old, the boys are, generally, more rough and tumble, the girls more cautious. Not all, of course, but generally.
It's society definitely though that widens this gap from there on, unfortunately.

That's one or two whole solid years of socialisation! I don't mean how the child is socially - it's how adults react to them. As mentioned upthread, there was an interesting programme which demonstrated how people (not all people, I'm sure, but certainly a great deal) instantly treat the kids differently if they are male or female. The things they say to them, the things they encourage, what they react to - this is happening in almost every social interaction, and also what they observe- how other boys and girls are treated.

I have two nephews and neither are rough-and-tumble, one is incredibly cautious (in fact, if there is any pattern of difference in this, I'd suggest that first-borns are generally more cautious and later born children more 'wild'. but that's not proven afaik!). Does this make them less male? Of course not. So what do you do with the knowledge that slightly more boys are slightly more physical?

Wellies54 · 05/10/2022 17:05

There are plenty of sensitive boys and boisterous girls. I think the most important thing is to let them be themselves and never to describe certain characteristics as girly or boyish. I have one of each and my daughter has always copied her brother in interests as well as having her own, so she loved ninjas and Star Wars etc. when he did. - and she has always hated the idea of playing with dolls!

Raddix · 05/10/2022 17:17

Boys and girls can have the exact same difficulties but will react differently. For example boys with autism are much more obvious because they behave badly, while girls with the exact same autism are more likely to mask it and behave in a socially acceptable manner.

Live4weekend · 05/10/2022 21:15

My 2 are different. (1 of each)

I don't know if DS would be more reserved if he was born 1st. But from early doors he was very boisterous and energetic. He loves the rough and tumble.

But he can also be incredibly sensitive and loving.

Dd has never been stereotypical girl in her play (DS has played with the dolls more) but she was always more girly in her dress (her choice).

I don't think I have really done anything different although I guess outside factors play a part and DS has got the confidence of a 2nd child.

5zeds · 05/10/2022 21:21

I have both and do find them very different. Not really in the way most people do, but I find boys more vulnerable “younger” and less resilient at primary and a switch at secondary with the girls being much more effected by friendship issues etc. my boys are not particularly “lads” and by girls not very girly, so perhaps we’re not a good example.

Queuesarasarah · 05/10/2022 21:23

I honestly do believe there is a particular dynamic to two siblings of the same sex that isn’t there with siblings of different sexes.

MsTSwift · 05/10/2022 21:32

Anecdotally it’s always the mothers of boys that come out with these cliches about boys being one way and girls another. Have been taken aback by otherwise intelligent feminist women saying this stuff. But I only have girls so …

HighlandPony · 05/10/2022 21:40

I don’t think in general they’re the same at all. I think there are exceptions on both sides but overall the stereotypes are mostly true. And I am one of the exceptions. I get boys. I get men. I don’t really get girls or a lot of women. It wasnt conditioning either as I was raised with the expectation of being feminine and nice and all the stuff that goes with it but I’m just not.

Namenic · 05/10/2022 21:57

there are differences in the probability of different developmental conditions in babies of different sexes - so I’d be surprised if there were no differences. However I think it’s probably greatly out-weighed by socialisation.

I was expecting dd to be talking early and taking longer to be mobile (as I thought girls were supposed to be quicker with communication) - but she’s actually the other way round - much faster at crawling and walking than sons and a bit behind on verbal. It is early days - but she is probably more similar to my younger son than he is to their brother. Small numbers though - so suppose we can’t draw many conclusions

WarriorN · 05/10/2022 22:08

Two boys; first emotionally uncomplicated and exceptionally bouncy / fast / hard to entertain. I was constantly charging after him as a toddler. But a joy to hang out with now he's discovered football and is a bit older. Perfect Peter at school.

Second emotionally complicated (fell in to a mini depression over a used and empty button packet, not for the chocolate but because it was ripped, this morningHmm) and always happily entertained himself, would walk next to me as a toddler holding my hand, I never had to worry where the hell he'd got to. He can sit and make art stuff by himself for ages, from age 3. Eldest likes art but could only do this when he got to age 8. Eldest also insisted on bathing in paint till he was about 7.

Totally different children. Both male. I worry a little that the youngest could be prone to depression when he's older.

WarriorN · 05/10/2022 22:14

I do however think there are inherent differences.

I teach SEND MLD and we have far more males than females. From my experience I think you're more likely to have learning difficulty if you have autism as a boy. Many have varying difficulties with add and adhd too.

Apparently male babies process things differently visually. Females are supposed to have more sensitive colour receptors.

But agree it's a bell curve. Obviously a colour blind female won't have that ability.

WarriorN · 05/10/2022 22:15

I think (but am incapable of remembering where I've read stuff) that girl's brains mature slightly quicker in infancy. I often feel social interaction and speech appears to be more advanced in v young girls than boys. Again, not always.

Swipe left for the next trending thread