is our aim protecting our sex based rights or is the issue our political leanings?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I've been confused by the falling out on social media by some women against other women and have been following the discussions online.

I am not very well informed politically - I think my opinion is that the important thing is ensuring that sex remains a protected characteristic and that "woman" means adult human female and not gender so that our rights to safety, privacy and dignity are protected in law and safeguarding follows that.

However, I can understand that it is difficult for left wing women to collaborate with women who are right wing, or for working class women to link with middle class or upper class women, because their politics and priorities are varied.

I think it is a strength that there are different approaches and different women speaking up because we desperately need to raise awareness because the majority of women are unaware of the threat to our sex based rights. That means we need a variety of voices, and everyone, as far as I can see, wants the same thing - our sex based rights and protections for children.

Maybe I'm being simplistic to think that "play nicely" will prevail. I hope so, though, because what I am watching looks like a big waste of energy and goodness knows this stuff is exhausting enough.

What can an ordinary woman like me who doesn't have a youtube or a book or a column do to try and help move things along? I'm worried we will land up with a GC purity spiral and nothing good will come of it.

We don't all have to agree. We should all keep our eyes on the prize.

For me, protecting sex-based rights is the key thing. I feel we were massively let down by groups like the Fawcett Society who had one job and didn't do it. There are others but you see what I mean.

I always thought it was a strength of various women's organisations that they specifically did not play politics because their goal was always to protect women and children.

It seems to me that we have Maya and Allison and other women because of the failures of the groups who were meant to look out for us but didn't.

This issue is whether we as feminists think it is acceptable to work with the alt right, neo nationalist and neo fascist organisations.
Signed,
A working class feminist

Divide and conquer is a tried and tested technique of the patriarchy.🤷‍♀️

@TooBigForMyBoots
And of the fascist.

Working with isn't the same as sharing the same beliefs as.

Many disparate groups share concerns about the transitioning of children, single sex spaces etc, not just feminists or women. People from all of these groups may choose to attend protests / meetings discussing these matters. It doesn't mean the organisers invited them or are working with them.

Don't underestimate the manipulation of feminists for political party goals. For example the oft repeated at least the Conservatives know what a woman is is and always has been an outright lie told, not to protect women and children, but to further Tory support.

Yes.

Dissent is good, dissent is healthy.

I imagine it can be hugely unpleasant for those embroiled in it, but I think a good ding-dong every now and again can clear the air, help us thrash out various points and hopefully, move on stronger and with more nuanced understanding.

Any movement (and whatever the movement to protect sex-based rights is, it's loose as a herd of cats) that does NOT have dissent, disagreement, arguments, fights and factions is prone to purity spirals, cultish behaviour - and probably sudden collapse.

Honestly, I think it's fine. We're making great headway, with every court case and JR, and newspaper article. The sunlight is flooding in and even North America is catching up. It's inevitable that things shift, change and move on as the surrounding conditions change. We're all adults; we can talk about it and move on, I think.

Also, to resist genderism has had great personal cost for most of the women involved in current ructions. Every one of them has my respect and admiration, even when I've disagreed with them on various points, even when they've said things that were downright horrible. I can't imagine how much its taken to speak up and receive threats and abuse over an extended period of time.

Personally, I owe all of these women a debt. They've raised the consciousness of the nation and done amazing things.

Onwards!

That's a great post Arabella. 👏👏👏

One of the biggest 'tells' for me is the bandying around of words like alt right and facist by people who self id as left wing.
If you have an argument then use it, these slurs are just name calling to me now.

Your do realise, as someone who recognises biologyl, you are the alt right facist now, right?

You silly women, know your place (its doing and thinking exactly what your betters- men- tell you)

Yes, this is my view too - bring it all on!

I don't even know what 'alt right' actually even means - i just see it thrown around willy nilly, I'm not sure the people chucking it around even know!

Excellent @ArabellaScott

Yes, @ArabellaScott, onwards!

@Ohnohedident now you are just talking absolute garbage and drawing a line in sand against fascists is not just a left wing endeavour. (See De Gaulle, Churchill, Macron, Eisenhower etc) . Are you saying everyone who fought against Hitler was leftwing ? No they most certainly were not. I think you should read up on the difference between the democratic political parties and extremists that we have lurking on the fringes of Western politics. In fact, all hovering around the internet waiting to jump on any cause they can find . Are you really so stupid/naive? Maybe you aren't from the same kinda working class back ground as me , because arseholes like the ones Posie always seems to "accidentally" bump into or "have no knowledge of"( despite interviewing them) used to pop up every so often round our parts to try and recruit disaffected youth with fuck all to do.

Good post from Arabella. It is a shame to see women falling out publicly but I'd prefer that to the attitude of the TRAs which is that anyone who doesn't absolutely toe the party line gets cancelled.

I think most gender-critical feminists on the left are happy to work with Tories like Miriam Cates and Emma Norman. Where many draw the line is on working with actual fascists of the Tommy Robinson variety or the American far right, who are quite a different beast from British Conservatives.

Eyes on the prize. I want this divorced from politics. This is a women rights issue not a left or right issue, no one owns this.

The trouble with this line is that it sounds an awful lot like Tories=bad people, like the being pro-women's-sex-based = bad people. It stops you hearing what is being sad. It is a form of no debate. If more of us were floating voters we would not be in this mess. It is the tribal vote keeping Labour secure that means Labour can arrogantly stomp all over us. And they are.

I don't believe the Tory men and women who have been active like Baroness Nicolson, Lord Ralph Lucas, Jackie Doyle Price or Kemi Badenoch, or even Liz Truss are cynically taking the line that a woman is a sex based definition - I think they believe it and genuinely believe in protecting women's rights. I shall never forget that people like Ralph Lucas canvassing for women's view on toilets and then standing up and reading those views out in the House of Lords was on of the first times our voices were properly heard on this.

I'm a floating voter and will probably vote Labour again one day but only when they have sorted their women issue out and not before. And I have always found the Tories=bad people mantra that Labour folk repeat to be off-putting - having found much to admire in individual Conservatives over the last 2-3 years, I am finding it even more off-putting. Neither side has the moral monopoly - they 're just people. Mostly doing their best however wrong we think they are getting it (I am talking about Labour on the 'wrong'). Time will tell whether Tuss's economic changes increase the stability and resilience of the economy or not - if not I might vote Labour if they have a serious economic plan and know what a woman is, and also if most of them stop crowing about their moral superiority, or they'll just continue to be part of the problem of no debate, and trying to beat your opponent by being nasty about them instead of dealing with the arguments. Blair won because he could see the Tories were right about some things and admitted it and because he kept the moral vilification to a minimum Labour supporters and the left's out-riders are really the best advert for the Tories. To Starmer's credit I think he sees this. Even if he does not know what a women is or won't say.

Exactly this.
Women & children have been let down by the very organizations that were meant to look after their safety, privacy & dignity.
From the police to education, medicine , from RSPCC to the Girl Guiding, all captured.
From the Labour, Greens to the Tories under May, Lib Dems & the SNP & the government of Wales the various political parties have let down women & children. Bloody disgrace, the lot of them.

I agree. Dissent is a good thing. I'm not impressed with some of the name calling that's gone on, but ultimately its fair healthier to openly disagree and passionately squabble debate than it is to refuse any dissent.
There is no such thing as one person who completely agrees with another person on everything.
90% of the reason that we're in this mess is because fair too many people have bought into there being an Ultimate One Truth About Gender that no one is even allowed to seek clarification about without being painted as suspect.

I shall never forget that people like Ralph Lucas canvassing for women's view on toilets and then standing up and reading those views out in the House of Lords was on of the first times our voices were properly heard on this.

I heard about the debate in the HoL and emailed Ralph Lucas, to my astonishment he emailed me back within minutes asking for more information about my views.

When I was a young woman anti porn feminists such as Dworkin and McKinnon allied with the Christian right in the US. I was a 'new lesbian' at the time and I just could not condone such an alliance. This old lesbian still can't!

My GC conversion happened about 3 months ago, after finally putting together many things that bother me. I have joined the LGB Alliance but have not engaged in any activism at all, and the reason is the same as my feeling about the anti porn movement in the 80s. I am still extremely uncomfortable around many GC people including very right wing people as I assume they will be homophobic and anti choice (for starters).

There are SO many types of feminism, so you would easily find some part that suits you. Trouble is of course that some types of feminists absolutely hate others! These days it is all about GC or not GC, there don't seem to be any other burning issues that can divide feminists so much anymore.

I don't know where you could effect the most change, but I guess more localised and more focused is best. Find something that is really important to you and find a way to focus on that, rather than spreading your energies too far and wide.

I suppose I'm near the fence but come down on the 'not willing to put this above my overall politics' line.

I accept that there aren't many issues I know more than other people about. However, through a series of accidents and the profession I trained in I actually do know a bit more about this issue than some.

In the 8 years I've been catapulted into being GC, I've seen a lot of UK arguments on exactly this problem - is maintaining the legal definition of women your top priority or one of your top priorities? Why do you feel that way/where does it sit in your wider politics, and what do you do when others who agree are far past a political line you would otherwise keep?

I don't vote Tory because I think conservatism and particularly its modern tack to the right is not positive for this country. I find Internet right wing stars very frightening as I think they are fundamentally nationalist and their GC views stem from a belief in national identity and sex identity (ie that sex and gender are and should be the same).

But yes, I'd rather have the arguments in public.