London and Boston Marathons to include non-binary category for 2023 races

[DillonPanthersTexas]

Why do I feel that this new non binary category will just end up as a second tier men's category? Why would a female athlete bother with entering?

Guardian Link

It is of course going to be a second additional category for male runners, great for men to have another option for winning. Especially as the qualifying times are the women's qualifying times, or as the Boston Marathon website describes them "they are inclusive of the qualifying times for the two existing divisions".

Does this mean men, whatever they call themselves, will not be allowed to enter the women's category?

Surely we need two separate NB categories, one for NB penis havers and one for NB uterus havers.

Oh, fantastic. That will be amusing to watch.

The winners in this new category will end up being male people, at least once the existence of this category is sufficiently publicised.

Sports categories are now seemingly seen as based on personality bundles (how feminine or masculine someone is) or on abstract inner gender identities which most people perhaps don't even have, but are now required to pretend to have.

It's weird, and if used logically would end up in the sex-based categories being removed, because those inner feelings have nothing to do with how fast someone can run the race. We might as well have categories based on political beliefs or favourite colours.

If it means anyone born male will be prevented from entering the women's race, and redirected here, I'm ok with it, even though as you say it gives men two events to win.

However I doubt that it going to be the case. So it could end up as:

1. Men's race - won by a man.
2. NB race - won by a man.
3. Women's race - won by a man who identifies as a woman.

Hurrah hurrah for women's sports.

As far as I can see, the entries just require a self declaration of gender. No proof of sex is asked for. So yes, male bodied people could win in each category. How wonderful for women.

Another category for blokes to win. Yippee

I am sure men must be delighted to have their chances to win expanded like this.

So winners categories will now be;
M) Elite male athletes
NB) Amateur/pedestrian male athletes
W) Mediocre/veteran male athletes

the NB category is only for the mass participation event - the elite races plus Championship and Good for Age categories, which all operate under World Athletics rules, will not offer a NB option. So, nobody is going to be 'winning' anything.

However, it's still stupid.

It's weird, and if used logically would end up in the sex-based categories being removed, because those inner feelings have nothing to do with how fast someone can run the race. We might as well have categories based on political beliefs or favourite colours.

But @nepeta how will anyone be able to tell whether sludge green really is my favourite colour, or whether I'm just saying that because I think it's going to be the easiest category?

I was thinking it might be a good thing for certain groups, such as:

People with rare, complex DSD’s e.g. Swyer’s syndrome or CAIS.

Trans men/non-binary women who’ve taken testosterone.

So many institutions now ask gender (rather than sex) and give the options of Male Female and no other options.

I, like 99% of people on here, do not have a binary gender.

In terms of sex I know what box to tick.

In terms of gender I’m non-binary as it’s a fluid thing and I have some masculine and feminine traits. I also wear male sweatshirts (big waist, small boobs) so am clearly a cross-dresser and under the Stonewall definition may call myself trans.

It’s not the NB category I have an issue with - it’s using the abstract gender term when they should use sex.

I'm always supportive of third spaces / categories for those who decide they don't want to use the space / category for their sex. I can't see this is a bad move. Especially since the elite race is still split into sex categories only with no NB option.

Are marathon results public? I would be fascinated to see how many NBs there actually are.

As long as those with a penis, or previously in possessing of one stay out of the woman’s race, I am happy for all the categories

I agree. I'm happy to include a third space for mass participation sports events provided that women's spaces are properly protected.

I feel sports inclusion is an important social and public health ambition. I'd see this category as an appropriate one for anyone transitioning male to female, anyone transitioning female to male and taking testosterone, anyone with DSDs which affect sports performance, anyone who socially presents as the opposite sex and would find it awkward to race and be classified as their actual sex, and anyone else who wants to 'be kind'.

Yes, it's a category where women will struggle to compete fairly with men, and some men are likely to take advantage of that, but (unless they are taking testosterone) women are warmly welcome to race as women to avoid that issue.

Yes. Or at least, London certainly publish theirs - you can filter to view the women's results so presumably in future years you'll be able to filter for "non binary" results and see how many there are and what sort of times they're clocking.

I'm predicting that as it's going to be a very small category, the next time it's run, loads of people will be identifying as non-binary in order to win.

Who knows, maybe everyone will. All it is, is saying the words out loud, right?

It does not effect the elite races so best file it under "yeah, whatever"

I could probably find this information online but does anyone know if the elite races and good for age run by World Athletics rules allow trans-women to enter the female races?

As stated above this NB category is only for the "fun runners" so who cares really as everyone runs together and mostly non-competitively.

Well, good. I've no problem with 'nonbinaries' having their own category - but whether they will want to continue with it when it becomes apparent that for some completely mysterious reason there's a sort of bimodal distribution thing going on remains to be seen.

Yes, if this is genuinely a third space which keeps penis-havers out of the women's event, then it's a good thing.

If it just means that men win in all three categories then it is not.

So if there are strict time requirements for entrance into the men's and women's categories and the same time requirements as the women's race for the non binary race which any male can self id into they are purposely creating a category for medioca men who can't make it into the men's race because they are too slow whilst still holding the women to the same standards as any other women race which to me screams sex discrimination to me I hope someone sues them