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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Teacher suspended in Ireland for refusing to use prefered pronoun and name

128 replies

miri1985 · 30/08/2022 20:21

www.thejournal.ie/high-court-injunction-teacher-westmeath-pronouns-5853324-Aug2022/

And yes he is one of those Burkes (large very fundamentalist family, campagined against gay marriage, prone to take cases but not a great track of winning)

OP posts:
youmakemesigh · 09/09/2022 12:13

His sister is apparently a lawyer but there are plenty of children of lawyers at that school. It is an international sort of school with the option of boarding though there are day pupils also.

UrslaB · 09/09/2022 12:53

His actions of essentially turning a private matter for that student into a public spectacle at the school's anniversary were despicable. A complete lack of care for the privacy and wellbeing of a child as he put his own religious and political views first. He allowed his ego and desire for a public spectacle to override all common sense. You do not call out your boss in a public forum on a policy decision you disagree with. This is unprofessional. Also, a breach of child protection and confidentiality if he wasn't careful about what he said. There are legal and employment mechanisms through which this matter should have been dealt. Then, after his suspension his actions were deplorable. He trespassed and harassed people. When a teacher is suspended, they can only come to a school by invite. The child safety issues alone of him creepily coming into school after being suspended make my mind boggle. Never mind how uncomfortable he would have made his work colleagues. In my opinion that is not the behaviour of someone well balanced or who cares about their students or their fellow staff.

Ultimately any grounds he had for a logical argument based on conscientious objection to refuse using the kids preferred pronouns have been lost to his quite frankly criminal behavior. Criminal, unprofessional and uncouth.

On the issue of pronouns...yeah, I don't get the fuss. If a kid is exploring who they are and asks me as a teacher to call them something else, and it's a sincere request...then sure. Whatever. I have better things to worry about as a teacher than a name: teaching curriculum, behavior issues, administrative matters, the budget cuts that are hamstringing my ability to teach, a class size of 30 kids regularly now who all have varied needs, increased SEN need etc etc. Using preferred pronouns is way down the list of things on my mind when teaching.

I have had multiple kids with 'nicknames' (PJ for Patrick Joseph, or Tommy for Thomas, nothing too mad) who asked to be called that instead of the name on the school register. Sound. No problem. Have had kids with double barrel first names who as they get older just want to be called one of their names. No problem. Have a number of foreign national children who have asked to be called by a more 'english' name so that they can fit in more. Do I agree with these kids wanting this? Personally, no. The nicknames thing I personally find a little too informal and the foreign national students wanting to use a more 'english' name I find distasteful because of the colonial overtones and loss of culture/identity. Yet I signed a work contract to uphold school policy on student dignity and pastoral care so I go along with it. That is the job.
I respect school policy and more so, I respect my students wishes. If it makes them more comfortable in my class and they are getting on with learning...grand. If I felt strongly about an issue I would use the correct channels and mechanisms to raise the issue, not make a public spectacle of myself, my students and my school.

I have had two students who wanted to change their pronouns and names for gender identity reasons. It was a bit tricky to kill the muscle memory in the beginning and get used to using their new terms but I did it because they asked. One student went on to transition fully while the other flip flopped on their gender and sexuality for a few years as they worked themselves out but last I heard they were now living as their assigned at birth gender along with their same sex partner. Did calling them the pronouns they asked for when they were a student hurt? Not that I can see. As a teacher, my job is to teach. Not to judge, not to tell a kid who they are and certainly not to force my own political or religious beliefs on them as Burke sought to do. If changing pronouns or how I address a student is how I can connect with them and make them feel comfortable in my class so they can learn to the best of their ability then that is what I will do. I want to respect my students' identities even as they grow and work them out themselves.

This man's behaviour is shameful and a black mark on the profession. He went about raising his objections completely inappropriately. What should have been an internal matter for the school has become a criminal matter, while what should have been a private matter for that student has become a public spectacle, adding more pressure and strain upon a child who is trying their hardest to work out who they are.

youmakemesigh · 09/09/2022 13:15

UrslaB · 09/09/2022 12:53

His actions of essentially turning a private matter for that student into a public spectacle at the school's anniversary were despicable. A complete lack of care for the privacy and wellbeing of a child as he put his own religious and political views first. He allowed his ego and desire for a public spectacle to override all common sense. You do not call out your boss in a public forum on a policy decision you disagree with. This is unprofessional. Also, a breach of child protection and confidentiality if he wasn't careful about what he said. There are legal and employment mechanisms through which this matter should have been dealt. Then, after his suspension his actions were deplorable. He trespassed and harassed people. When a teacher is suspended, they can only come to a school by invite. The child safety issues alone of him creepily coming into school after being suspended make my mind boggle. Never mind how uncomfortable he would have made his work colleagues. In my opinion that is not the behaviour of someone well balanced or who cares about their students or their fellow staff.

Ultimately any grounds he had for a logical argument based on conscientious objection to refuse using the kids preferred pronouns have been lost to his quite frankly criminal behavior. Criminal, unprofessional and uncouth.

On the issue of pronouns...yeah, I don't get the fuss. If a kid is exploring who they are and asks me as a teacher to call them something else, and it's a sincere request...then sure. Whatever. I have better things to worry about as a teacher than a name: teaching curriculum, behavior issues, administrative matters, the budget cuts that are hamstringing my ability to teach, a class size of 30 kids regularly now who all have varied needs, increased SEN need etc etc. Using preferred pronouns is way down the list of things on my mind when teaching.

I have had multiple kids with 'nicknames' (PJ for Patrick Joseph, or Tommy for Thomas, nothing too mad) who asked to be called that instead of the name on the school register. Sound. No problem. Have had kids with double barrel first names who as they get older just want to be called one of their names. No problem. Have a number of foreign national children who have asked to be called by a more 'english' name so that they can fit in more. Do I agree with these kids wanting this? Personally, no. The nicknames thing I personally find a little too informal and the foreign national students wanting to use a more 'english' name I find distasteful because of the colonial overtones and loss of culture/identity. Yet I signed a work contract to uphold school policy on student dignity and pastoral care so I go along with it. That is the job.
I respect school policy and more so, I respect my students wishes. If it makes them more comfortable in my class and they are getting on with learning...grand. If I felt strongly about an issue I would use the correct channels and mechanisms to raise the issue, not make a public spectacle of myself, my students and my school.

I have had two students who wanted to change their pronouns and names for gender identity reasons. It was a bit tricky to kill the muscle memory in the beginning and get used to using their new terms but I did it because they asked. One student went on to transition fully while the other flip flopped on their gender and sexuality for a few years as they worked themselves out but last I heard they were now living as their assigned at birth gender along with their same sex partner. Did calling them the pronouns they asked for when they were a student hurt? Not that I can see. As a teacher, my job is to teach. Not to judge, not to tell a kid who they are and certainly not to force my own political or religious beliefs on them as Burke sought to do. If changing pronouns or how I address a student is how I can connect with them and make them feel comfortable in my class so they can learn to the best of their ability then that is what I will do. I want to respect my students' identities even as they grow and work them out themselves.

This man's behaviour is shameful and a black mark on the profession. He went about raising his objections completely inappropriately. What should have been an internal matter for the school has become a criminal matter, while what should have been a private matter for that student has become a public spectacle, adding more pressure and strain upon a child who is trying their hardest to work out who they are.

You have put this brilliantly. Perfect articulation of what I was trying to say.

ArabellaScott · 09/09/2022 13:49

Bernard Randall vs Trent College tribunal is going on today, possibly some similar issues .

twitter.com/tribunaltweets2

anystropheus · 09/09/2022 13:58

UrslaB · 09/09/2022 12:53

His actions of essentially turning a private matter for that student into a public spectacle at the school's anniversary were despicable. A complete lack of care for the privacy and wellbeing of a child as he put his own religious and political views first. He allowed his ego and desire for a public spectacle to override all common sense. You do not call out your boss in a public forum on a policy decision you disagree with. This is unprofessional. Also, a breach of child protection and confidentiality if he wasn't careful about what he said. There are legal and employment mechanisms through which this matter should have been dealt. Then, after his suspension his actions were deplorable. He trespassed and harassed people. When a teacher is suspended, they can only come to a school by invite. The child safety issues alone of him creepily coming into school after being suspended make my mind boggle. Never mind how uncomfortable he would have made his work colleagues. In my opinion that is not the behaviour of someone well balanced or who cares about their students or their fellow staff.

Ultimately any grounds he had for a logical argument based on conscientious objection to refuse using the kids preferred pronouns have been lost to his quite frankly criminal behavior. Criminal, unprofessional and uncouth.

On the issue of pronouns...yeah, I don't get the fuss. If a kid is exploring who they are and asks me as a teacher to call them something else, and it's a sincere request...then sure. Whatever. I have better things to worry about as a teacher than a name: teaching curriculum, behavior issues, administrative matters, the budget cuts that are hamstringing my ability to teach, a class size of 30 kids regularly now who all have varied needs, increased SEN need etc etc. Using preferred pronouns is way down the list of things on my mind when teaching.

I have had multiple kids with 'nicknames' (PJ for Patrick Joseph, or Tommy for Thomas, nothing too mad) who asked to be called that instead of the name on the school register. Sound. No problem. Have had kids with double barrel first names who as they get older just want to be called one of their names. No problem. Have a number of foreign national children who have asked to be called by a more 'english' name so that they can fit in more. Do I agree with these kids wanting this? Personally, no. The nicknames thing I personally find a little too informal and the foreign national students wanting to use a more 'english' name I find distasteful because of the colonial overtones and loss of culture/identity. Yet I signed a work contract to uphold school policy on student dignity and pastoral care so I go along with it. That is the job.
I respect school policy and more so, I respect my students wishes. If it makes them more comfortable in my class and they are getting on with learning...grand. If I felt strongly about an issue I would use the correct channels and mechanisms to raise the issue, not make a public spectacle of myself, my students and my school.

I have had two students who wanted to change their pronouns and names for gender identity reasons. It was a bit tricky to kill the muscle memory in the beginning and get used to using their new terms but I did it because they asked. One student went on to transition fully while the other flip flopped on their gender and sexuality for a few years as they worked themselves out but last I heard they were now living as their assigned at birth gender along with their same sex partner. Did calling them the pronouns they asked for when they were a student hurt? Not that I can see. As a teacher, my job is to teach. Not to judge, not to tell a kid who they are and certainly not to force my own political or religious beliefs on them as Burke sought to do. If changing pronouns or how I address a student is how I can connect with them and make them feel comfortable in my class so they can learn to the best of their ability then that is what I will do. I want to respect my students' identities even as they grow and work them out themselves.

This man's behaviour is shameful and a black mark on the profession. He went about raising his objections completely inappropriately. What should have been an internal matter for the school has become a criminal matter, while what should have been a private matter for that student has become a public spectacle, adding more pressure and strain upon a child who is trying their hardest to work out who they are.

Thank you for sharing these thoughts. He really is not someone who should be a teacher

3timeslucky · 09/09/2022 14:17

elferian · 09/09/2022 11:50

because he is a homophobe, refusing to use pronouns - fine; refusing and casting religious slurs on those that do is not

I have seen no mention of the child being gay, no reference to Burke making homophobic comments to or about the child and no reference to anyone's religious beliefs but Burke's. So what you're describing doesn't appear to play a part in this case. He may well be homophobic in his thoughts and beliefs (but they're not new and the school hired him knowing who he is) so if he hasn't said or done anything with those thoughts and beliefs then I can't see how they're relevant to this case. I'm not defending the man but we're talking about a particular legal case, not doing a profile of the man.

3timeslucky · 09/09/2022 14:24

youmakemesigh · 09/09/2022 11:51

It doesn't matter. The welfare of the child is a priority. Why does he object to using pronouns requested by the child and the child's parents? Why does he object to the new name? He objects as he doesn't believe in transgenderism (?). Would he object to a child fleeing domestic violence having a new name? He believes that it's against his religion and that it's against the ethos of the school to support a child transitioning. The school's ethos is that of the Church of Ireland. Their ethos is not forced on any student. They are multidenominational but their primary ethos is that. In Ireland, the welfare of the child is paramount in law.

I think the jury is out as to whether a child's welfare is best served by social transition. Maybe that'll be a direction the court case will take.

A child fleeing domestic violence would not be claiming they'd changed sex so is in no way similar. Burke's objection is to being asked to say that a boy is a girl (or vice versa) not some attachment to a child's given name.

anystropheus · 09/09/2022 14:53

3timeslucky · 09/09/2022 14:24

I think the jury is out as to whether a child's welfare is best served by social transition. Maybe that'll be a direction the court case will take.

A child fleeing domestic violence would not be claiming they'd changed sex so is in no way similar. Burke's objection is to being asked to say that a boy is a girl (or vice versa) not some attachment to a child's given name.

The child in question wasn't even in any of Burke's classes.

I can't imagine anyone reading about this case in detail and coming to the conclusion that he's acted in a reasonable way.

A bit of an embarrassment really.

elferian · 09/09/2022 15:27

3timeslucky · 09/09/2022 14:17

I have seen no mention of the child being gay, no reference to Burke making homophobic comments to or about the child and no reference to anyone's religious beliefs but Burke's. So what you're describing doesn't appear to play a part in this case. He may well be homophobic in his thoughts and beliefs (but they're not new and the school hired him knowing who he is) so if he hasn't said or done anything with those thoughts and beliefs then I can't see how they're relevant to this case. I'm not defending the man but we're talking about a particular legal case, not doing a profile of the man.

nonesense. Of course he is homophobic (bocktherobber.com/2014/03/fundamentalist-levitican-anti-gay-man-child-runs-for-election-to-students-union-equality-officer/)
And we are not talking about the legal case because that is about breach of suspension not the reason for the suspension

youmakemesigh · 09/09/2022 18:07

3timeslucky · 09/09/2022 14:24

I think the jury is out as to whether a child's welfare is best served by social transition. Maybe that'll be a direction the court case will take.

A child fleeing domestic violence would not be claiming they'd changed sex so is in no way similar. Burke's objection is to being asked to say that a boy is a girl (or vice versa) not some attachment to a child's given name.

The welfare of the child in this case is not dependent on the view of any court as to whether a child's welfare is best served by transition. The welfare of the child and children in this case is dependent on ensuring that someone with extreme views is not allowed to spread hatred among them.

OakAshBeech · 09/09/2022 19:01

The welfare of the child and children in this case is dependent on ensuring that someone with extreme views is not allowed to spread hatred among them.

I know in this case the teacher in question is a zealot and has behaved appallingly, but, surely, not ageeing with transgender ideology isn't an extreme view in itself? Or has it become so by now?
I guess my problem is - where does it stop? I think I'd like to address someone in whatever manner they themselves choose, but I'm not a fan of unisex toilets and am opposed to men in women's sports and spaces. And I don't want to be asked what my own pronouns are. Does an acceptance of transgender pronoun use in others indicate an acceptance of the ideology as a whole?
What would have happened if the teacher refused to use 'they' but otherwise behaved well. Or if it were a classmate who refused to use the term 'they'. They'd be branded a bigot, of course, but what would the school's position have been then, I wonder?

youmakemesigh · 09/09/2022 20:30

OakAshBeech · 09/09/2022 19:01

The welfare of the child and children in this case is dependent on ensuring that someone with extreme views is not allowed to spread hatred among them.

I know in this case the teacher in question is a zealot and has behaved appallingly, but, surely, not ageeing with transgender ideology isn't an extreme view in itself? Or has it become so by now?
I guess my problem is - where does it stop? I think I'd like to address someone in whatever manner they themselves choose, but I'm not a fan of unisex toilets and am opposed to men in women's sports and spaces. And I don't want to be asked what my own pronouns are. Does an acceptance of transgender pronoun use in others indicate an acceptance of the ideology as a whole?
What would have happened if the teacher refused to use 'they' but otherwise behaved well. Or if it were a classmate who refused to use the term 'they'. They'd be branded a bigot, of course, but what would the school's position have been then, I wonder?

None of this for him was ever about transgender.

youmakemesigh · 09/09/2022 20:32

In my day, we'd have been called a little shit (a gender neutral shit). Times change.

Solidarityisbetterthanchsrity · 09/09/2022 22:08

The kid is presumably wealthy because they attend that private school - it's expensive. Religious beliefs are actually protected in the Equal Status Act. Also this school is relgious which gives more weight to having protection. Gender identity is not protected in the Equal Status Act - gender is, and gender specifically refers to male or female. There is no reference to 'they/them' on any legal documents. This school does not have a leg to stand on - they issued an illegal order to teachers to comply with something and this is at the root of the issue. The school being in the wrong, had plenty of time to resolve it but they didn't and ended up calling the police. The school has made an utter mess of this and they are legally vulnerable.
Enoch Borke's personality is irrelevant here. He is a great teacher and is religious. Lots of people have strange beliefs. This entire section of Mumsnet is devoted to discussing many of these strange beliefs

Cailleach1 · 09/09/2022 23:04

The pupils (even the boarders) are not necessarily well-to-do. As far as I know, Wilson's Hospital school take day pupils and don't charge fees for said day pupils for normal tuition.

It is the boarders who have to pay. As a Church of Ireland school, the provision of boarding would serve pupils of that denomination who would not have a local or even nearby COI secondary school. I think the gov't gives financial assistance because of that; the pupils would be at a disadvantage compared to RC pupils who have more choice of day schools. I think protestant families receive a grant towards the boarding fees, subject to a means test.

Here are two articles offering different perspectives in the Irish times, from 2013.

www.irishtimes.com/news/education/state-protection-of-protestant-fee-paying-schools-needs-to-be-challenged-1.1525591

www.irishtimes.com/news/education/in-defence-of-grants-protestant-perspectives-on-schooling-1.1569535

Cailleach1 · 09/09/2022 23:18

Here is a website in relation to the grant. Won't witter on any more now; I know it is an aside.

secgrant.ie

3timeslucky · 10/09/2022 09:32

anystropheus · 09/09/2022 14:53

The child in question wasn't even in any of Burke's classes.

I can't imagine anyone reading about this case in detail and coming to the conclusion that he's acted in a reasonable way.

A bit of an embarrassment really.

I didn't say he acted in a reasonable way. He clearly didn't.

But the 2 facts I stated remain true and are unrelated to how unreasonable he was.

3timeslucky · 10/09/2022 09:34

elferian · 09/09/2022 15:27

nonesense. Of course he is homophobic (bocktherobber.com/2014/03/fundamentalist-levitican-anti-gay-man-child-runs-for-election-to-students-union-equality-officer/)
And we are not talking about the legal case because that is about breach of suspension not the reason for the suspension

My point is that he is not being accused of being homophobic. He wasn't suspended for being homophobic. There's been no claim that he was homophobic in this case. So yes he is homophobic in his beliefs but that doesn't seem to have any bearing on this case and didn't seem to have any bearing on his being employed by the school.

I'm not saying he is a lovely man. I'm trying to focus on what is relevant to this case.

3timeslucky · 10/09/2022 09:41

What relevance does the socio economic background of the student or general student body have? The reasonableness (or not) of the pronoun request, the duties of a teacher/terms of employment, the grounds for his suspension, his failure to comply with the injunction, his imprisonment ... none of it is connected to the socio economics of the families. Why would it have played out differently in any other school? What am I missing?

Solidarityisbetterthanchsrity · 10/09/2022 14:36

The socioeconomic status matters because gender ideology is being pushed from those of high socioeconomic status: some of it it came from the ivory towers of academia; much of the push in schools comes from powerful families who insist on getting their way.

3timeslucky · 11/09/2022 09:11

Ah ok. I don't see that irl though I am aware of the seeds in the ivory towers of navel gazing academia and I have seen articles that frame it as a primarily white advantaged phenomenon (not Irish articles though).

The kickback I see in real life is from what would be described as middle-aged, middle-class intelligent liberal women. Real life is a bubble though. As always the #notall applies.

3timeslucky · 11/09/2022 09:16

In relation to my other posts and in case there is any confusion. I have no time for the man at the centre of this shitshow. What I'm trying to highlight is that how much I (or others) dislike him has no bearing in how the law should or will apply. I'm interested in why exactly he was suspended (was it pronouns or other behaviour) and whether the issue of compelled pronouns will be dealt with in court. I wish anyone else was taking a case on that issue. Aside from that I'm pretty disinterested in whether he spends his life in jail because he refuses to purge his contempt of court (though he is presenting it that it is his beliefs that have him in prison and that's quite a daisy chain of events but is really muddying the waters).

Happyhapoydog · 16/09/2022 07:21

What’s ‘relevant’ is that he’s being arrested because he won’t comply with a court order. I’m surprised they hired this Yukon in the first place, his family are infamous…

DaSilvaP · 20/09/2022 17:30

I could quote few totalitarian regimes whose early most vocal unrepentant opponents were some fringe religious groups.
Just some totally unconnected thoughts ...

elferian · 20/09/2022 18:16

I could quote few totalitarian regimes whose early most vocal unrepentant proponents were some fringe religious groups.
Just some totally unconnected thoughts ...