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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Irvine Welsh's New Book

48 replies

Igneococcus · 27/08/2022 20:13

Has not one, but three trans characters. It will be interesting how this is going to be received. Article in the Times Scotland:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/380397f8-2624-11ed-bf78-57ebd2e3e25c?shareToken=c41adc535b125cbd0f6429627b5d9f27

OP posts:
AlexandriasWindmill · 27/08/2022 21:49

EamesBird · 27/08/2022 21:40

"I wonder if there’ll be any threats of walkouts at his publishers" aye or rape / death threats and stalkers outside his house! Maybe the actors from his films will disparage and shun him in the press...

Yy it would be interesting to see if there's a generational difference when it comes to throwing a writer under the bus. The original Trainspotting cast are old enough to be parents to the HP cast.
Not to mention the obvious difference between IW and JKR ... if only there were words to define it 😉

Fenlandia · 27/08/2022 21:56

Igneococcus · 27/08/2022 20:54

I agree @Fenlandia this made me roll my eyes too, but I also don't think it will be a complete fawn-fest.

Agreed. He'll probably get TRA grief regardless

NotBadConsidering · 27/08/2022 22:20

I think Welsh knows exactly what he’s doing. I think it will be VERY useful indeed.

jetadore · 27/08/2022 23:44

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 20:53

'“For his transitioning to be regarded as successful, Lennox considers it would require a massive societal readjustment as to what constitutes femininity.”'

Confused

Just me or does that sound very ironic?

risefromyourgrave · 28/08/2022 08:15

jetadore · 27/08/2022 23:44

Just me or does that sound very ironic?

I think that means that the character still looks so much like a man that in order for them to have successfully’ transitioned’ society would have to accept men into ‘femininity’. In other words, Lennox thinks the trans character still looks exactly like a man.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/08/2022 09:03

Yes that's how I read it too.

ArabellaScott · 28/08/2022 10:24

Hm.

Waterstones says 'stunning new thriller'.

Funny how the male authors get treated differently.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10092701/Waterstones-blasted-selectively-censoring-books-feminism.html

WandaWomblesaurus · 28/08/2022 10:33

It JKR wrote this book the TRAs would be foaming, gnashing, spitting and screaming for her death.

BuenoSucia · 28/08/2022 10:41

I could see Begbie going full-on acronym - cutting his way through Leith with blades and a frock.

AlexandriasWindmill · 28/08/2022 10:49

WandaWomblesaurus · 28/08/2022 10:33

It JKR wrote this book the TRAs would be foaming, gnashing, spitting and screaming for her death.

But I think IW is deliberately making that point. He hasn't accidentally waded into a culture war here. He knows the grief JKR has been getting. He knows how people have been 'cancelled'. He's already expressed strong views on both. He has put a target on himself and is waiting to see what happens next.

NotBadConsidering · 28/08/2022 11:05

AlexandriasWindmill · 28/08/2022 10:49

But I think IW is deliberately making that point. He hasn't accidentally waded into a culture war here. He knows the grief JKR has been getting. He knows how people have been 'cancelled'. He's already expressed strong views on both. He has put a target on himself and is waiting to see what happens next.

Exactly this. He’s deliberately stirring the pot to make the point when no one comes after him. Like how everyone conveniently forgot Damian Barr used the offensive T word and everyone just waved their hands and it was forgotten. He’s definitely on JKR’s side here.

Rounddog · 28/08/2022 11:14

I absolutely love Iving Welsh he is one of my favourite authors. The main reason I like him is his near constant focus on shadow parts of personalities which most authors sanitise over and leave out as part of the overall human experience. He almost goes in the other direction sometimes and his themes are usually disturbing but in many ways he captures the human experience better than many authors do.

I will be very interested to see does he bring that to these characters.

Firty · 28/08/2022 11:17

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2022 21:14

Yes, reading the article it doesn't sound like the trans characters are going to get any special treatment.

Interesting philosophical point here. If these characters don’t get special treatment, will the trans community accept that the characters are trans?

Surely the very definition of trans is to be ‘special’ and have one’s own views and desires given priority over those of other groups.

ScreamingMeMe · 28/08/2022 11:26

LavenderfortheBees · 27/08/2022 21:08

To me that character doesn't sound like we are meant to be sympathetic. Lennox sounds like he is thinking such a societal readjustment would be impossible.

That's how I read it too.

GCBookseller · 28/08/2022 20:15

ArabellaScott · 28/08/2022 10:24

Hm.

Waterstones says 'stunning new thriller'.

Funny how the male authors get treated differently.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10092701/Waterstones-blasted-selectively-censoring-books-feminism.html

There are a few uber-woke people working there: some of us are trying hard to make sure controversial books are easy to find, but it only takes one TRA on the team and they’re offended and oppressed, yada yada. Also there are some very sad individuals who think nothing of coming into a shop and destroying and/or hiding (or stealing) a book that offends them. Occasionally it makes more sense to keep ‘offensive’ items at the counter 🙄 I’ll have to check the new Welsh book out …

Wanderingowl · 29/08/2022 11:56

Fenlandia · 27/08/2022 20:50

I don't have high hopes Igneo, based on this paragraph from the Times article

Then there is Gary/Gayle, an aggressive student advocate of no platforming: “What appears to be a brawny young man of around six foot four in a blue dress … bulldozes in, a charged storm of bristling rage.” When Gayle stares down Lennox, the detective ponders: “For his transitioning to be regarded as successful, Lennox considers it would require a massive societal readjustment as to what constitutes femininity.”

But it's not about stereotypes ever is it

Sorry but you have taken the absolute opposite meaning from that paragraph as it's written. That's a fucking nuclear level burn on Gary, spelling it out explicitly that the doesn't now nor never will pass as a woman.

aseriesofstillimages · 29/08/2022 12:01

It sounds to me from this section of his Guardian interview about the book that he went in with an open minded, balanced approach, as you would hope an author would:

”What led you to the novel’s transgender storyline?

I just thought it was such interesting waters to go into. We’re all asking fundamental questions about identity now that the things that defined us are slipping away. It’s complex, moving-picture stuff. You don’t know how much of it is a distraction to keep us at each other’s throats politically: if trans women compete in athletics, or if they’re barred, it’s not going to change the fact that lots of people are going to die because everybody’s getting fucked with their heating bills over the winter. It’s obviously difficult waters to go into because everything has become so shouty. We had a trans adviser on the book and I was dreading it. I thought, this is going to be another layer of censorship. But it was incredibly educational. I learned a lot.”

IcakethereforeIam · 29/08/2022 17:24

Hm, I think I'm going to wait until the book's out. Lennox could do a complete 180 by the end, he and Gary/Gayle could be skipping off into the sunset.

Actually, that seems rather sweet.

UnderTheBench · 29/08/2022 21:17

Firty · 28/08/2022 11:17

Interesting philosophical point here. If these characters don’t get special treatment, will the trans community accept that the characters are trans?

Surely the very definition of trans is to be ‘special’ and have one’s own views and desires given priority over those of other groups.

To be honest, I think that definition is often appled by 'allies' as much as by trans people. It's TRAs that are generally people attacking, cancelling, threatening, etc, and many of them are not trans. Well, they might be 'non-binary' or some other 'gender creative' type of thing.

Ikeameatballs · 26/12/2022 20:41

I finally read this book today and wondered how I had missed the death threats and outrage that must have surely been directed at Welsh…. Or did he get away without that because he’s a man?

MrSand · 26/12/2022 21:14

Are the trans characters not all paragons of virtue?

Coconutmeg · 27/12/2022 09:19

Do I need to have read Crime first?

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