Lionel Shriver - ‘We Need To Talk About Ezra’

[TheClogLady]

Lionel Shriver talks to Freddie Sayer’s at Unherd about Ezra Miller (Miller played the eponymous Kevin in the film adaptation of Shriver’s book ‘We Need To Talk About Kevin’ back in 2011).

m.youtube.com/watch?v=9SIs9vhjI1w

Shriver’s palpable annoyance at serious publications sacrificing proper grammar by pandering to Miller’s demands for they/them pronouns and rendering their own articles nonsensical is my favourite bit (and Freddie’s reading of the long list of Miller’s alleged crimes is proper eye popping).

Oh wow, I did not know my soul needed this. I never thought about the connection between those two before.

I hope her next novel is about a violent, unstable “non binary” film star. I’d definitely read it
even though WNTTAK was the only book of hers I’ve liked. There’s a mean streak in her writing that suited the subject matter of Kevin and would deal with Ezra just as brilliantly.

*Sayers.
Sorry Freddie.
I blame autocorrect.

(as I’m forced to make another comment due to that errant apostrophe, here’s a time stamped link for the bit about pronouns:

)

Or perhaps not. Curse you mumsnet and your disappearing time stamp!

it’s at 14:15 onwards.

I agree DarkDay, if any author could write up a believable evilenby character it’s Lionel.

I find Shriver fascinating, and also a little terrifying.
I liked the dynamic here with Sayers (he puts her firmly centre stage) and I also throughly enjoyed her in conversation with Douglas Murray a couple of years ago. m.youtube.com/watch?v=ddBKQIomyYI

Or perhaps not. Curse you mumsnet and your disappearing time stamp!

It works when you go through to YouTube!

There's a mean streak in Lionel period. Really has it in for the Irish - described us as a 'scummy potato residue ' trying to destroy Brexit.

Was photographed with a UFF mug ( Ulster Freedom Fighters a loyalist paramilitary group)
I'm sure it's nothing to do with her father being a hellfire preacher from North Carolina.

Yeah I'm.sure she could do a number on trans ppl. Or feminists. You have to take a chance I guess. But I Iong for the day we don't need bitter pills like Lionel to wage these battles.

I didn’t know that, but I have to say I’m not surprised. More like mildly disappointed. It seems to fit.

To clarify, I’ve no particular desire to see her “doing a number on trans ppl.” It’s not fair to conflate Ezra Miller specifically, or even the archetype he appears to represent, with trans people generally. I think the deeply unpleasant streak in her writing that worked so well in WNTTAK could work equally well in a character study of the predatory male enby type. Miller is genuinely sinister.

I went right off Lionel Shriver after reading The Motion of the Body Through Space. I don't remember the book in great detail, but the impression I got from it was that she's bitter about how equality has "gone too far now", specifically in relation to race. What I mostly remember is finishing the book and thinking that I didn't want to give that author any more of my money again.

I can't say I'm a fan. on holiday a few years ago i chewed my way through one of her later novels, 'the mandibles', an improbably dreary allegory taking potshots at the many pet hates of 'libertarians' (big government, tax, gun control, fiat currency, etc, yawn).

'I find Shriver fascinating, and also a little terrifying.
I liked the dynamic here with Sayers (he puts her firmly centre stage) and I also throughly enjoyed her in conversation with Douglas Murray a couple of years ago. m.youtube.com/watch?v=ddBKQIomyYI'

I agree. The conversation with Douglas Murray is great. They're both people I don't particularly warm to, but always find them really interesting to listen to

An interesting interview, thanks OP.

Whatever you think of Shriver, her articulation of what 'identity' means to her in this interview is fascinating. She encapsulates some of my own thoughts so perfectly. It's definitely worth listening to.

Her views on some subjects wildly differs to mine. But I cannot deny her fierce, incisive intelligence. That comment on the Irish is appalling abhannmor - I'm surprised she hasn't come in for more flack for that. Didn't she actually live in Northern Ireland?!

I'm disappointed that she holds such repugnant views - I wish she didn't.

Put like that it looks bad but...she has it in for a lot of people (as a lifelong rebel, first against her family especially her Presbyterian minister father, a girl who hated being a girl, a feminist who hates being a woman, a rough, tough fighter, an austere self denier, a writer, a prophet of doom, a kicker against group mentality and sometimes deliberate stirrer)...she said her husband wasn't a mashed potatoes pushover, so maybe potatoes is a favourite metaphor.

And it's not only the Irish: A New Yorker interviewer: "She got into an argument about Brexit with an English acquaintance of mine, which culminated in actual screaming. He left outraged, and e-mailed me the next morning, still upset. When I asked Shriver if the dispute had bothered her, she had no memory of it. She is so accustomed to scrapping that it registers for her as little more than small talk."

This article in the Irish Times gives an insight into her: www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/lionel-shriver-i-do-not-want-to-be-told-i-m-privileged-1.3512472

And The Spectator article shows that she has a collection of mugs from across the spectrum in Belfast, not just the UFF, whom she doesn't support: www.spectator.co.uk/article/whatever-you-write-will-get-twisted

She’s one of my favourite writers. I don’t need to agree with the political views of someone to appreciate their work. She’s funny and acerbic and an essay she wrote after Kevin about how they tried to put a pastel-type cover on the book, because she was a female writer has stayed with me.

Great interview. She's a fantastic writer and very interesting commentator on current events. Just a fascinating person all around.

She's interesting because she doesn't give a fuck
It's invigorating to see a woman of her age have views people hate a refuse to compromise or care

She's prickly and channelling that 'oestrogen doesn't live here any more' energy that I recognise myself.

She's right on the gender thing. I liked her analysis of what identity was to her. She didn't mention that it used to be about community rather than individuality. (I think Frank Furedi said that in a talk I watched recently.)

The point about telling children identity being inside us fully formed is really profound - it's been about years of developing and becoming for generations before us. And the way it places so much pressure on children chimes with the idea that there might be trans children capable of making life-changing experiences.

I'm trying to understand why Ezra Miller's inappropriate behaviour around children isn't more examined.

I love her writing. And I love her thoroughly unlikable characters. No froth or sentiment, even a character dying of cancer is a horrible person.

Saw her interviewed at a lit fest a few years ago by an idiot who hadn't read the new book and admitted they were halfway through WNTTAK and wanted to talk about that. The rudeness and unprofessionalism of that deserved some rage, but Shriver smiled and was charming. Wish I'd shouted out the big reveal to ruin the rest of the book for her.

Yeah ' when you put it like that ' she is a nasty vicious racist. But , hold on lads , she is an equal opportunity hater so it's all fine and grand.

She screams abuse at people and claims not to recall it. The old right wing Republican Party Reptile tactic of PJ O Rourke. Throw a brick through a window and say ' easy fella , it's satire , don't hate me'

But maybe she really doesn't recall these episodes? Psychopaths are human too , right ? She has lots of fans on Mumsnet though , so I guess she knows the buttons to push...

Her views on some subjects wildly differs to mine. But I cannot deny her fierce, incisive intelligence

This. And recognizing her intelligence / finding her interesting does not mean you become her "fan". This is not middle school, we don't have to pick teams or swear allegiances, let's stop being childish.

There’s a lot to dislike about Shriver, sure, but a lot that’s interesting too.

I liked her saying that in the past we had Character, which was something you worked on yourself to build, to be the kind of person you aspired to be. It was internal work.
Now there’s Identity, where you see something outside yourself and say , “yes, that’s me, I identify as that.” And the job is not to build yourself, but to ’discover’ the amazing person you are. And that everyone has to go along with those discoveries, no matter how untethered to reality.

She is an interesting, acerbic and contrary woman. I frequently disagree vehemently with her but she’s still worth listening to.

I saw this piece on this "profilicity" form of identity, which seems related. Maybe it was from the comments to the video.

Potentially interesting:

jaredmorningstar.medium.com/trans-and-nonbinary-identity-in-the-age-of-profilicity-65f6162d823c

Moeller asserts we are currently experiencing a shift from understanding identity through this mode of authenticity, to understanding it through profilicity — the newest identity technology and perhaps the most complex. Profilicity involves curating a public profile for the purpose of expressing and developing identity. [...] Basically, you are curating an identity by judging how it would be received by an abstracted audience of peers. A phenomenon such as “virtue signaling” can easily be understood through this identity technology: you’re not necessarily trying to express your deep inner desires or trying to fit neatly into a pre-defined social role — you are expressing a certain attitude that you believe will be favorably received by an audience composed of peers and by doing so, curating a certain “profile” for yourself.

Yadda yadda. If she was a man from North Carolina venting his bile you'd all be saying ' How was this hate monger allowed into Britain?'

If she is 'fiercely intelligent ' then so is Ayn Rand.

Yes , @Givenitarest she used to live in Belfast and has picked her side , despite not being at 'middle school '. Not such a rebel against her dad after all. She evidently can't wait for the Troubles to kick off again. The price of her beloved Brexit - paid in other people's blood.

A phenomenon such as “virtue signaling” can easily be understood through this identity technology: you’re not necessarily trying to express your deep inner desires or trying to fit neatly into a pre-defined social role — you are expressing a certain attitude that you believe will be favorably received by an audience composed of peers and by doing so, curating a certain “profile” for yourself.

This is well put. It's performing for an audience.

Well I'm a 'fan' of her as a writer, at least to the extent that I buy her books.

She's obviously intelligent, as was Ayn Rand. Just because you disagree with someone, doesn't make them stupid. Intelligent people can have widely diverse views.

i mostly like her books but find her quite abrasive when speaking..but loved this ..
'identify as a cat or a lampost...and we legally have to get with YOUR programme'

my thoughts..be a bloody cat/furry/lampost/they, them, it even be a bloody symbol is you want but do not expect the rest of society to accommodate this