"Transwomen should be legally considered women" - debate

[beastlyslumber]

Really felt for the molecular geneticist in this debate.

I wish he’d challenged her on it.

He doesn't usually challenge the participants on their beliefs/arguments, but rather on how they are coming to those beliefs. He tends to ask difficult questions but he doesn't take a stance. The one he did on men in women's sports was interesting in that respect. You could see him trying to find the cracks he could lever open. He also tries to get the participants to engage with each other's ideas, rather than bringing new ideas into the debate himself.

He's also the author of a great book called 'How to Have Impossible Conversations'.

I don't think he needed to challenge them because giving them chance to put across their views was enough. The older woman gave clear answers grounded in fact and stuck to her position. The man tried to find a bit of middle ground but was defeated by logic. The younger woman tied herself up in knots trying to justify her position and was clearly very uncomfortable. It was interesting that she retreated to 'you must all hate me' when the only heckle appeared to have been directed at the other woman. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the start of her own journey of realisation.

Particularly loved the idea that a pregnant person can decline to take part in medical procedures.

I mean identifying out of labour is a nice idea...

Also slightly puzzled that as a scientist she can't see any legal evidence that the issue is black and white. Does molecular biology not involve any understanding of biology?

Labour doesn't have to be medicalised so you could opt out of a medicalised labour. However, I wonder how quick they would be to sue if medicines unsuitable for pregnant women were prescribed? I know some meds require girls and women to take a pregnancy test before they will prescribe them.

It might be possible to opt of out medicalised labour but you can't then opt out of labour.

Obviously not. But she did only say opt out of medical procedures. I would hope she wasn't deluded enough to think that would include a non-medicalised labour.

Dear me. "I'd like to know why, legally, it matters." After hearing about the effects of having men in women's prisons, women's changing rooms... She really wasn't addressing the arguments from the other side at all.

Very disheartening from the younger woman, who seemed particularly naive about the intentions of men. The molecular geneticist was a powerhouse. You could feel all her concern as she spoke the truth.

I enjoyed the random bloke thinking it'd be perfectly fine to arbitrarily label some men female on driving licenses (swiftly corrected when the molecular geneticist brought some much-needed critical thinking to the debate) -- and these are supposed to be smart people?? Goodness me.

It was interesting that she retreated to 'you must all hate me' when the only heckle appeared to have been directed at the other woman.

100%. When on the losing side of a debate, toss logic out the window and reach in desperation for the emotive hyperbolic language while painting yourself a victim. Just like the group she's defending. It's all they've got.

Fair play to them all for participating in a recorded debate like this, however.

Yeah, but I remember feeling like this as a young woman. I wanted to believe in other people's good intentions and, even though I read a lot of rad fem writing, I just couldn't bear to face up to the awfulness of a male-dominated society.

It's what Dworkin said: women resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society, and all personal relationships

Quite interesting - if only to see someone hearing their own arguments flounder in public. No wonder the younger woman was embarrassed.

Obviously very muddled thinking - talked about a pregnant woman’s right to refuse treatment - when in fact if she did not declare she was female she might well get treatment that was completely unsuitable for her.

Talked about women being refused the right to an education as comparable to men not being allowed access to incarcerated women. And she’s ignorant about her own history, because the first women students were threatened & assaulted.

But maybe she’ll go on thinking & try to reason it out.

Nope. They're blokes.

I enjoyed the random bloke thinking it'd be perfectly fine to arbitrarily label some men female on driving licenses (swiftly corrected when the molecular geneticist brought some much-needed critical thinking to the debate) -- and these are supposed to be smart people?? Goodness me.

Yes. I also thought about things like insurance premiums and driving crime statistics. Not as serious as a male in a women's prison, but still quite important matters.