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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jerry Sadowitz

336 replies

Bearsinmotion · 15/08/2022 13:08

Is anyone following this?

Really strange - the Pleasance theatre have cancelled Jerry Sadowitz’s show at the fringe, citing audience walkouts and complaints of extreme misogyny and racism. But have not quoted what was said that was so offensive even to him. Both Sadowitz and people who were there have questioned the walkouts. The show had many, many warnings about offensive content, and that he was going to be getting his cock out, which he did, as do other comedians at the Fringe.

there are a few comedians supporting him on Twitter, around the defence of free speech. But what stood out to me in the language was that audience members felt “unsafe,” yet I have not seen a single person say that was them. Graham Linehan has written about it here. Just wondering if it was related to the TRA frenzy as Glinner implies, with manufactured outrage or whether Sadowitz genuinely went too far this time.

I used to love Jerry back in the day, and he was one of the few calling out Jimmy Saville when it counted, so I want to believe he’s not been targeted for once again calling out those doing real harm…

OP posts:
Changedmynamefor · 15/08/2022 16:10

When I first heard about it I was surprised because it’s Jerry Sadowitz FFS - being offensive/outrageous is his ‘thing’ and he’s being doing it for 30+ years. As a result, I thought the response was unusual from the Pleasance since they’ve no doubt hosted him before. If they were that concerned, they shouldn’t have let him book with their venue.

I’ve seen suggestions that it was the venue staff that complained and if that’s the case, then it’s a disgrace. The Pleasance knows his deal, if they are concerned for staff being offended then either they should make sure staff on that show are robust enough to cope and/or they shouldn’t be employing people who can’t cope with the wildly varying content at the Edinburgh Festival.

For me, it’s the the Pleasance comes out of this looking the worst, particularly with their contradictory ‘we support freedom of creative expression/we’re cancelling him because people were offended’ statement. Numpties.

IcakethereforeIam · 15/08/2022 16:14

If the staff were the complainants their beef is with the Pleasance not Sadowitz. I wonder if that's why the venue is so all over the place? Are they worried about getting cancelled. Seems very frog and scorpion.

RoyalCorgi · 15/08/2022 16:15

Oh, the idiocy of the Pleasance comment (from that Sun report):

Anthony Alderson, Director of the Pleasance, said: “The Pleasance is a venue that champions freedom of speech and we do not censor comedians’ material.

“While we acknowledge that Jerry Sadowitz has often been controversial, the material presented at his first show is not acceptable and does not align with our values.

“This type of material has no place on the festival and the Pleasance will not be presenting his second and final show.”

In that case, you don't bloody champion freedom of speech, do you? If you cancel someone's performance, then you are censoring their material.

Fine if he'd said "We believe freedom of speech has its limits, and Sadowitz went beyond them." But to say both that you believe in freedom of speech and then that you're cancelling someone's show because it's offensive is Orwellian fuckwittery of the highest order.

BlueWhat · 15/08/2022 16:22

*JenniferBarkley
All I've seen is that he got his dick out. I doubt that would be tolerated in most places.

Unless you go to Bristol and then you can take your 5-year-old child to see the Family Sex Show.*

Haha! Exactly!!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/08/2022 16:26

I'm sure I saw a statement where the Pleasance said people in the building rather than audience suggesting that maybe the issue wasn't the audience? It sounds to me as if the Pleasance are worried about being cancelled themselves - I wish I knew by who.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 15/08/2022 16:29

I would have thought sadowitz would have sold out well before the day, so I doubt it would have been a audience member shambling in off the street expecting mock the week type humour. So it was likely either someone intending to complain or staff.

I can see why someone wouldn't want to be offended at work, but isn't that the nature of the job? Either the venue messed up big time and didn't know who they were booking, or they didn't employ the right people for the venue.

ScreamingMeMe · 15/08/2022 16:31

SerendipityJane · 15/08/2022 14:41

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11110575/JK-Rowling-wades-Jerry-Sadowitz-row-comedians-Edinburgh-Fringe-cancelled.html

JK Rowling weighs into Jerry Sadowitz row after comedian's Edinburgh Fringe show was cancelled: Author likes tweet branding decision 'beyond shameful' as backlash grows at venue bosses for 'destroying free speech'

Bloody hell, does the Daily Mail have someone on 24-7 Rowling Tweets Watch?

SerendipityJane · 15/08/2022 16:31

IcakethereforeIam · 15/08/2022 16:14

If the staff were the complainants their beef is with the Pleasance not Sadowitz. I wonder if that's why the venue is so all over the place? Are they worried about getting cancelled. Seems very frog and scorpion.

As an employer does the Pleasance not have a duty of care to it's staff as well as patrons ?

So if it is true (?) that staff were upset then the Pleasance has failed that duty and stands liable for redress.

Of course, if JS happened to blindside them by hiding or not disclosing the content of his show, then they could sue him for their losses. But somehow, I can't see that happening. This little story won't go within a million miles of a court.

I have fond memories of JS TV show back in the 80s en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_People_vs._Jerry_Sadowitz

when he was "The Gobfather".

terryleather · 15/08/2022 16:35

JenniferBarkley · 15/08/2022 13:34

All I've seen is that he got his dick out. I doubt that would be tolerated in most places.

Puppetry Of The Penis was (still is..?) a regular at the Fringe....

SerendipityJane · 15/08/2022 16:38

terryleather · 15/08/2022 16:35

Puppetry Of The Penis was (still is..?) a regular at the Fringe....

I never got a chance to see them 30 years ago, when they came to London. Wish I had now. I guess it's not too late ....

IcakethereforeIam · 15/08/2022 16:42

30 years? If it's the same guys their, um, repertoire may have expandedBlush

JemimaPuddlegoose · 15/08/2022 16:42

A friend of mine who's Asian went to see one of his shows, she was expecting to hear "offensive humour" and is fine with that (she loves Ricky Gervais, Frankie Boyle, the late Bill Hicks, and was expecting Frankie Boyle-style comedy) but he used numerous racial slurs which were all directed towards her directly and personally, and she was the only non-white person in the audience. After the show a group of men who'd been in the audience got in her way outside the venue toilets and started to heckle her, one even tried to groped her, and they called her the same racial slurs when she objected.

That is what people mean when they say they feel unsafe. A comedian onstage calling the only black person in the audience "ner" or the only Asian woman in the room "chy" sends a direct message to the rest of the audience that that person is fair game for abuse, and that it's socially acceptable to call people nr and cy. Yes it's intended as satire but you can't expect that everyone who goes to see a stand up show will be intellectually capable of discerning the nuance between "ironically" calling a woman "nr" or "hole" as a form of satire, and just calling them "n***r" and "hole". Especially if the audience is very drunk - bear in mind the audience are encouraged to get drunk and even the show description mentions drinking before hand.

It's fashionable to deride women wanting to feel safe as liberal woke snowflakes, but genuinely: imagine if you were one of the only women in an audience surrounded by leery drunk blokes, who were being egged by the man onstage on to degrade and women and to regard women as sluts and holes, in an environment where it's explicitly clear that it's acceptable to expose your genitals, would you as women really feel completely safe surrounded by a load of drunk blokes braying and guffawing about women being just holes for fucking? Would you feel safe pushing past them to get to the toilet, or walking across a dark car park afterwards knowing they were around?

Do you really think that extremely drunk men who've been ramped up and egged on by a rowdy and misogynistic environment are capable of understanding "women aren't really just holes who exist to be fucked it's just satire" and "it's completely fine for that specific man to get his dick out but not you, if you do it then it's wrong and illegal"?

I'm honestly astounded that feminists are defended a man who racially abuses female audience members and flashes his penis at women without their consent, just because of an unconfirmed rumour that he made anti-trans jokes and speculation that it was TRA who objected? (Which doesn't even seem to be true, none of the articles have mentioned transphobia at all - in fact the absence is jarring.) By all accounts trans people are the ONLY group that JS did not target or make jokes about - why is that I wonder?

I've been to a thousand comedy and fringe theatre shows in my life, I've done Edinburgh tons of times. I've seen shows where I've had food thrown over me, been dragged onstage, all kinds of nonsense. I've certainly seen plenty of shows that included nudity including 'Puppetry of the Penis'. I'm hardly a prude! But I've never seen a stand-up comedy show where the comedian just randomly got his dick out when the show description didn't mention nudity. I don't believe the arguments that women should have known to expect exposed penises and racial slurs just because the description said "offensive humour." Sick of women being blamed and having to take responsibility for male behaviour!

SerendipityJane · 15/08/2022 16:48

IcakethereforeIam · 15/08/2022 16:42

30 years? If it's the same guys their, um, repertoire may have expandedBlush

😂

Around 30 years ... I recall the feature in TimeOut (complete with pictures). And before that there was a Robert Mapplethorpe exhibition (may have been raided) that Time Out illustrated with a photo ...

It's not a case of feeling like we are going backwards, as far as I can see. We have. So many things feel so much more like my childhood now than they did 25 years ago.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 15/08/2022 16:48

A friend of mine who's Asian went to see one of his shows, she was expecting to hear...

That's part of the problem, it's not up to a performer to give the audience what they expect.

I'm sorry the attack happened to your friend, but it was those men that did it, nobody else.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 15/08/2022 16:54

Not every performance is for every member of the public. It's ridiculous to buy a ticket to an event that says 'offensive humour', and just assume it won't offend you when you don't even bother to google. It would take about 3 minutes.

Cobrachai · 15/08/2022 17:00

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Floisme · 15/08/2022 17:03

Yes it's intended as satire but you can't expect that everyone who goes to see a stand up show will be intellectually capable of discerning the nuance between "ironically" calling a woman "nr" or "hole" as a form of satire, and just calling them "n*r" and "hole". Especially if the audience is very drunk
I take your point and I think it's a good one. But are you saying that no satire can be allowed if there's any possibility that some people will misunderstand it?
If yes, does that extend to other art forms too?

I'm honestly astounded that feminists are defended a man who racially abuses female audience members and flashes his penis at women without their consent, just because of an unconfirmed rumour that he made anti-trans jokes and speculation that it was TRA who objected?
i won't try and speak for other posters but no, that isn't my point at all and to be honest, I think it's a bit off to suggest that. Are you sure you're not referring to the other thread on AIBU?

As for the show description not mentioning nudity, my understanding is that it does.

PrimAndProperViperish · 15/08/2022 17:05

I've never seen a stand-up comedy show where the comedian just randomly got his dick out when the show description didn't mention nudity.

But it did. The pre-show description said 'I'll get my dick out'.

Alarmcloc · 15/08/2022 17:09

PrimAndProperViperish · 15/08/2022 17:05

I've never seen a stand-up comedy show where the comedian just randomly got his dick out when the show description didn't mention nudity.

But it did. The pre-show description said 'I'll get my dick out'.

That quote was from a promotional video on his social media page.

IcakethereforeIam · 15/08/2022 17:15

I know, anyone would think he identified as being in the women's changing room at Penn State!

JemimaPuddlegoose · 15/08/2022 17:16

There's a pretty fucking huge difference between "satire" and directly pointing out a specific person in the audience (who is the only person in the room who's non-white) and specifically and deliberately calling them racial slurs.

I am looking at the original event page right now and it does not mention one word about nudity and certainly nothing about exposed penises. Direct copy and paste:

web.archive.org/web/20220624175652/tickets.edfringe.com/whats-on/jerry-sadowitz-not-for-anyone

"Description
Jerry Sadowitz returns with his whacky impressions of Greta Thunberg, Frankie Boyle and deep vein thrombosis. He also promises to do less hate-fuelled swearing and focus more on faux liberal pish in order to appeal to the middle class and their disposable income and personalities. 'Please note that I might just do card tricks and say nothing for a whole hour or I might just do the usual "screaming fascist" schtick. Or both. Patrons may wish to drink alcohol pre-show to avoid boredom, embarrassment and guilt.'

Warnings and additional info: This show contains strong language and themes some may find distressing."

Alarmcloc · 15/08/2022 17:20

I am looking at the original event page right now and it does not mention one word about nudity and certainly nothing about exposed penises.

It wasn't just exposed on stage either, it was deliberately targeted at a woman sitting in the front row.

Bearsinmotion · 15/08/2022 17:22

I'm honestly astounded that feminists are defended a man who racially abuses female audience members and flashes his penis at women without their consent, just because of an unconfirmed rumour that he made anti-trans jokes and speculation that it was TRA who objected?

the problem is, unless you know more than we do, pretty much everything you have posted is an unconfirmed rumour. If there was a statement from the venue or from audience members that Sadowitz was egging the audience “to degrade and women and to regard women as sluts and holes, in an environment where it's explicitly clear that it's acceptable to expose your genitals, would you as women really feel completely safe surrounded by a load of drunk blokes braying and guffawing about women being just holes for fucking,”’ or singling people out because of race, why isn’t the venue or audience saying that?

Agree that the absence of comments around transphobia is jarring, and that’s why I am so curious. Could it be that the venue recognised the risk of banning a known offensive comedian for getting his penis out on stage and pointing out he could do the same in a female changing room without an issue if he said he felt like a woman, given what he is known to have said in the past?

OP posts:
PrimAndProperViperish · 15/08/2022 17:23

Well, we just can't know what happened or what was said.

Unfortunately the Pleasance has declined to elaborate and Sadowitz has also refused to explain further.

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/comedy/news/jerry-sadowitz-comedy-edinburgh-fringe-b2145111.html