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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Suella Braverman expected to make a speech on Wednesday

379 replies

achillestoes · 08/08/2022 12:21

In which she will say (in advance of DfE guidance to be issued in September - apparently) that schools are not legally obligated to facilitate childhood transition through the use of opposite sex or neo-pronouns (non-binary etc), allowing children to use the toilets of the opposite sex (arrangements should be made for children to use a third space if needed), or the uniform of the opposite sex.

For some reason this has provoked an outpouring of accusations of Suella being ‘as thick as mince’. One charming person wished her dead. Someone else said we ‘don’t get to’ disagree with Suella on other things and then agree with her on this. Erm...

Anyway, this seems like a return to much-needed ordinary safeguarding practices to me.

I don’t care if boys wear skirts particularly. I do care about my daughters being bullied to pretend they are female.

OP posts:
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TheKeatingFive · 13/08/2022 14:46

That blog is so clear, cuts through all the various crap and obfuscation that surrounds this subject. Thanks for posting.

ScrollingLeaves · 13/08/2022 23:29

My own interpretation of these statements is that a biological male with a GRC remains a biological male for the purposes of single sex provision and that there is no need to invoke paragraph 28 of Schedule 3 to exclude him, along with all biological males, from single sex female services.

If I’m wrong about that, and if paragraph 28 does require to be invoked in order to exclude a biological male with a GRC from single sex female services, then that will in my view have serious consequences for the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill currently making its way through the Scottish Parliament. I’ll deal with that in detail in the last of the forthcoming articles

I was wondering about the statements, “My own interpretation ….”
and, “If I’m wrong about that…”
Don’t they suggest there is still lack of clarity?

Please would someone explain to me: is ‘gender reassignment’ different from having a GRC?

CervixSampler · 19/08/2022 18:12

Can schools make their own policy on this? I suspect not but a friend whose child is at a school with a large lgbtqa+ community seems to think it is. My Dd is gender critical and gets grief for saying people can't change sex and struggles to keep up with pronouns changes.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/08/2022 18:22

CervixSampler · 19/08/2022 18:12

Can schools make their own policy on this? I suspect not but a friend whose child is at a school with a large lgbtqa+ community seems to think it is. My Dd is gender critical and gets grief for saying people can't change sex and struggles to keep up with pronouns changes.

Currently many foolish schools use policies made up by very self interested adults / groups who prioritise the demands of adults with a niche interest in sexual politics / queer theory rather than the safeguarding, wellbeing and psychological welfare of children. So I suppose yes the policies have been made up - usually by adults with zero qualifications in child development, psychology and education.

Until the government issues specific guidelines that prioritise the needs of children rather than these toxic groups, this is going to continue I fear. The implications of the Cass Review are unlikely to impact on schools until the DfE (currently captured by the trans extremists) stop them. Sad

Artichokeleaves · 19/08/2022 20:11

Schools have also apparently trustingly believed the misrepresentations of the law given to them by trainers they did not check the training, qualifications and veracity of, or compare the advice to things like safeguarding policy.

The trust has been very, very exploited and people have blindly believed the lies about 'it's illegal to....' (not subordinate the rights of your female children in favour of TQ+ politics)

Novum · 20/08/2022 10:51

I really don't want Braverman's support. This is the person who wants to get us out of the ECHR, voted for sewage outlets on our beaches, is proud of the British Empire, thinks it's legal to tear up the Northern Ireland treaty, has no problem with government members and supporters breaking the law, and keeps denying that there are any problems stemming from Brexit. Her support for a cause can do it nothing but harm.

CervixSampler · 20/08/2022 11:36

It's a bit of a head fuck when my beliefs on something align with the tories. Doesn't mean I agree with them on anything else though.

Artichokeleaves · 20/08/2022 20:06

Novum · 20/08/2022 10:51

I really don't want Braverman's support. This is the person who wants to get us out of the ECHR, voted for sewage outlets on our beaches, is proud of the British Empire, thinks it's legal to tear up the Northern Ireland treaty, has no problem with government members and supporters breaking the law, and keeps denying that there are any problems stemming from Brexit. Her support for a cause can do it nothing but harm.

I'm afraid this is a serious enough matter that it's a cross party matter, and politics and purity will have to wait until the appalling assault on female rights and safeguarding is sorted out, there isn't the luxury of time to be picky or to worry about this any more.

RoyalCorgi · 20/08/2022 20:13

Please would someone explain to me: is ‘gender reassignment’ different from having a GRC?

Yes. Or possibly no. The wording in the Equality Act is so vague it's very very hard to know who falls under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment:

This is what the Act says:

Gender reassignment
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.
(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

The important bit is that first paragraph, but it's so vague it's impossible to say what it means. It's not just people who have undergone reassignment but are undergoing or proposing to undergo reassignment. And reassignment can be physiological or "other attributes of sex".

I find it extraordinary that the Act was passed into law using such an unclear definition.

ScrollingLeaves · 20/08/2022 21:15

@RoyalCorgi · Today 20:13
Thank you for trying to explain.
I seems that with Gender Reassignment a person has protected rights almost as though they had a GRC.

I was wondering especially, on what grounds can a child at school be said to have the characteristic of Gender Reassignment?

OldCrone · 20/08/2022 22:48

I was wondering especially, on what grounds can a child at school be said to have the characteristic of Gender Reassignment?

I think it's to do with the 'proposing to undergo' clause. A person can be considered to be proposing to undergo gender reassignment as soon as tthey mention it to someone else. This means they have the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment.

ofcourseitis · 20/08/2022 23:04

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Novum · 21/08/2022 00:16

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Really? Do you remember what it was like both in Northern Ireland and indeed in England before the Good Friday agreement? I'm not sure that the many women and girls who were killed and injured in the conflicts would agree with you that tearing up the NI treaty is unimportant. Nor will the women struggling to feed their families and heat their homes this winter. Nor will any of us feel safe with rivers and beaches full of sewage. Suggesting these things are unimportant enough to be ignored even temporarily again does the cause no good whatsoever.

Xiaoxiong · 21/08/2022 00:36

The Tories have also signed us up for net zero by 2050 - I'm not going to stop believing in climate change.

ScrollingLeaves · 21/08/2022 08:55

This is the person who wants to get us out of the ECHR

The ECHR may be a very good thing in general, but it led to the GRA under Tony Blair in 2004.

ScrollingLeaves · 21/08/2022 08:57

Sorry, the first sentence was a quote from
@Novum · Yesterday 10:51 which I was responding to.

Quia · 21/08/2022 21:15
PeriodBro · 21/08/2022 21:58

Oh, a film slagging off a woman for being 'dense'. 'thick', 'unintelligent' and an 'airhead'? How very progressive.

Quia · 22/08/2022 08:33

A comedy video in a series the vast majority of which makes fun of men. The day we decide that women have to be immune because they are women is the day we really surrender our feminism.

RoyalCorgi · 22/08/2022 08:45

I was wondering especially, on what grounds can a child at school be said to have the characteristic of Gender Reassignment?

This is the $64m question. If I've understood Braverman correctly, she thinks that children can't have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, because they can't have undergone gender reassignment, nor be proposing to undergo gender reassignment, because they're too young. But it seems to me the wording of the Act is so vague that it could potentially cover children - a 12-year old could be proposing to undergo surgery or hormones when they're older.

Moreover, as reassignment covers "changing physiological or other attributes of sex" then they don't even have to propose having surgery or hormones, but changing other aspects of sex - whatever they may be. (To be honest, I have no idea what other aspects of sex there are outside the physiological, so I'm at sea with this.)

It is remarkable that lawyers, politicians and civil servants will all have scrutinised that wording and presumably all gone, "Yup, looks fine. Can't see any problem there."

Deepinspace · 22/08/2022 09:00

Quia · 21/08/2022 21:15

The racism and misogyny shown here is astonishing, why do TRA's hate women so much? Do they not have mothers? sisters?

Signalbox · 22/08/2022 09:54

Quia · 22/08/2022 08:33

A comedy video in a series the vast majority of which makes fun of men. The day we decide that women have to be immune because they are women is the day we really surrender our feminism.

"Thick" is definitely the current ad hominem of choice for female politicians (and other successful women) who have the wrong opinions. I'm not saying that it's never applied to men but of the 4 women who were in the leadership race I've heard / seen multiple people call at least 3 of them "thick" or "not very bright". These people know that they can't get away with undermining women by calling them "fat" or "ugly" anymore so they just opt for "thick" instead.

Signalbox · 22/08/2022 10:04

Signalbox · 22/08/2022 09:54

"Thick" is definitely the current ad hominem of choice for female politicians (and other successful women) who have the wrong opinions. I'm not saying that it's never applied to men but of the 4 women who were in the leadership race I've heard / seen multiple people call at least 3 of them "thick" or "not very bright". These people know that they can't get away with undermining women by calling them "fat" or "ugly" anymore so they just opt for "thick" instead.

Having said that I think that comedy should be able to criticise/parody politicians. But to suggest "thick" is not a gendered insult is wrong imo.

BeenAway · 22/08/2022 18:45

I doubt very much I agree with the attorney general on much else, but I do agree with her on this issue, I thought her speech was great. I think if the GRA and ‘gender reassignment’ in the EA is going to be legally interpreted as the attorney general says in speech, then it seems to me to make both the GRA and ‘gender reassignment’ in the EA null and void. Therefore, it would seem logical that the GRA be repealed, and ‘gender reassignment’ in the EA removed, as if males who have a GRC or are proposing to undergo ‘gender reassignment’ are going to treated as the males they objectively are for legal purposes, then what is the point of the GRA, a GRC or ‘gender reassignment’ in the EA?

If on the other hand it is determined that GRA and ‘gender reassignment’ in the EA cannot be interpreted as the attorney general says in her speech, then I think the GRA, and ‘gender reassignment’ in the EA (and any other laws that imply someone can legally change sex) should be repealed, as it has now become crystal clear that allowing someone to legally change sex erodes female’s and homosexual’s rights, has led to the harming of children and young people, and has restricted everyone’s free speech.

I think rights can be protected in law without having laws based on an anti-science idea that people can change sex. For example, gender ideology can be covered under ‘belief’ in the Equality Act, so people cannot be discriminated against at work etc., for their belief in gender ideology, but would also mean they cannot force their ideological beliefs on others, who may not only consider gender ideology anti-science but also consider it a sexist and homophobic ideology. Similarly, gender dysphoria, or other mental health issues that cause someone to reject their sexed body or to interpret their self differently to objective reality, could be covered under disability (mental health issues) in the EA. This could allow such a person to get the mental health support they need, without forcing others to participate in someone’s mental health issues, of course that would require mental health practitioners to actually treat the cause of the person’s issues, rather than affirming the person’s subjective ideas they have about themselves, which are not based on objective reality. Likewise, dressing in clothing associated with the opposite sex could be covered under anti-sex discrimination in the EA. For example, it can be made clear that a female should not be discriminated against for wearing ‘masculine’ clothing to work etc., and a male should not be discriminated against for wearing ‘feminine’ clothing to work etc (as long as the clothing is not indecent and is safe for the work environment). Moreover, if someone, say a male has undergone plastic surgeries to his genitals and now have complications due those surgeries, causing him a disability in comparison to other males, then he could be covered under disability under the EA, and could use disabled facilities, such as disabled toilets or changing rooms. So there are many ways people can have their rights protected under existing EA protections, without having to have a law based on the anti-science idea people can change sex, or should be treated as if they have changed sex.

Furthermore, there could also be anti-discrimination protections enacted for people who have undergone body modifications. For example, it could be made unlawful to treat a male who has undergone any type of plastic surgery differently to a male who has not undergone plastic surgery (it could even also include treating people who have lots of piercings or tattoos differently from people who have none etc). This way plastic surgery and taking hormones would be seen as a body modification (which objectively it is) rather than a sign that someone has changed sex (which is not physically possible), people would then be protected from being treated unfavourably in comparison to other members of their own sex, or have not undergone these body modifications, but would not be treated as if they have actually changed sex which is not physically possible.

I think people can have their basic rights protected in these ways, without the GRA , ‘gender reassignment’ in the EA, or any other law that implies people can change sex. I don’t think anyone should have the ‘right’ to legally change their sex when it is not physically possible, we have seen that the idea people can change sex being written into law and policy has led to erosion of female’s and homosexual’s rights, harm to children and young people, and has led everyone having their free speech eroded, resulting in some even having their jobs threatened, and having to go to court. I do think a lot of good things have come from the ECHR, but as a previous poster has highlighted it has ‘led to the GRA under Tony Blair in 2004’. I think the government needs to make the case for repealing the GRA and removing gender reassignment from the EA, and any other laws on the books that imply people can change sex, as in my view we shouldn’t have laws on the books that are based on a anti-science ideology that someone can change sex, that gives people massive privacy privileges and harms others in society, particularly the rights of females and homosexuals. I think if the ECHR objects to the repealing of anti-science laws that imply people can change sex, like the GRA and gender reassignment in the EA, then there is a good case that can be made for leaving the ECHR in my opinion.

ScrollingLeaves · 22/08/2022 20:41

@BeenAway · Today 18:45

So many wise points.