It just doesn't make sense!!

[Puffincrossing]

I have just been reading an article about a 22 year old who was 'an effeminate gay man' but decided 'to live life as a woman' and is pursuing a career as a drag queen as it gives them the 'opportunity to be my most authentic self, I can be crazy and wear cool outfits'.

Surely if you are transgender and now really are a woman you can't also be a drag queen?? It's one or the other! So sick of all it it, yes people can be their authentic selves but if there's no 'rules' how can anyone else know what's going on?

Cailleach1 I'm not an expert in these matters I'm just someone who knows some trans people and has read a few of their blogs, etc. my understanding is there is gender identity ('inside') and gender expression ('outside') so people that dress in a 'masculine' way and vice versa doesn't change who they are on the inside. E.g. one of my friends at work is a trans woman. She is long post op and has had her GRC a long time. She mainly wears similar clothes to me: trousers, flat shoes, maybe a blouse or shirt nothing that screams 'femininity' in a performative way, she just is. If I wear clothes from the Men's section, men's shoes and cut my hair short it doesn't make me a man. However some trans men may feel that's all they need to do, I don't pretend to know how people feel.

I don't think there's anything 'uniquely trans' they are just people same as us.

But the point was that the gay men mocking themselves were not women. They were mocking their own, " socially unacceptable in men" femininity. Which is a bit misogynist.

By the logic of the gender identity ideology, TWAW therefore it isn't drag. Just the female gender dressing as the female gender. It would be logically consistent at least if TW claimed to be female but dressed as a parody of men or if a trans king, dressed as a woman.

So which is it? You can't have both.

It has become people of any sex or "gender identity" just parodying females and extreme femininity. It is misogynist and females ( those with a healthy self anyway) are telling you so.

It IS a privileged group (males) mocking one they as a group oppressed ( females).

It is womanface.

Multiple articles from the Archives of sexual behaviour.

Yikes.

Are you suggesting transgenderism has a sexual component?

I mean I totally agree, I think autogynephilia drives a lot of this, we have been saying so for years. So have the self aware autogynephiliacs.

It really isnt about gay men with feminine souls expressing their femininity and self parodying, but to hear it coming from you!

Aren't you afraid? That definately isn't the party line.

You might get accused of transphobia.

Baaaaa I don't understand, I said I hadn't checked them! I literally took 2 seconds in the middle of the night to google them for someone who wanted evidence of trans people in history and other cultures.

I would imagine there may well be a sexual element for some people, we are all (well mostly all as adults but not all) sexual people. That doesn't mean all trans people feel the same way as the people you refer to.

I don't know what you mean by 'coming from me' have you confused me with someone else?

Gender is a societal construct and is should therefore not be limited to a genetics reasoning. Biological sex comes in multiple variations that includes bodies having both sets of gonads, one usually more "functional" than the other.
www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/think-gender-comes-down-to-x-and-y-chromosomes-think-again/article24811543/ Insisting on biology to argue about gender is bad faith, because that is NOT what it is about.
There are probably 200 million people worldwide who don't fit the binary representation of the genders and would like to be able to express who they are and therefore who they want to be perceived as.
But some determined transphobes have identified 105 CLEAR CASES of transgenderism being used by criminals as "a ruse", so 'we must fight' and prevent EVERY trans gender person from living the life they crave.
Just like, historically , gay men have been tarnished with the paedo brush. As if it automatically belonged to their "condition".
Trans women, for the largest majority, are suffering in their "assigned" roles as men, and are suffering abuse in their "self assumed" identities as women. Are they doomed to suffer, or are we giving them some slack and let them be. If they tell me their name is Eve, I won't be challenging it by insisting, "yeah, but REALLY it's Steve, innit?" Would you?

Biological sex comes in multiple variations that includes bodies having both sets of gonads,

Tell us about this condition where people have two sets of gonads. (Your link doesn't go anywhere relevant btw)

Biology might not be your strongest subject

So, I want to make it clear that I'm not the OP that said that, and biology is definitely not my subject so I make no claims as to the scientific validity of the article, also I want to make it clear that I believe Intersex and DSD have nothing to do with trans gender. I was just interested, so googled to find the answer as whether humans could have two sets of gonads and found the below:

rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/ovotesticular-disorder-of-sex-development/

Again nothing to do with trans gender and I just thought I'd provide some info as you asked. I'm not the OP

If men have an issue with masculine stereotypes then surely the best thing, as we have been saying here for years, is simply get rid of the outdated gender roles? Be proud feminine men.

The issue isn't with a man wanting to call himself eve, the issue is with men telling us their chosen name or dress sense somehow makes them a woman. Because this enforces the bloody stereotypes and turns 'woman' into feelings and appearance rather than a sex class.

It's pure sexism.

I’m ignoring the biological part of your argument, being as you are saying we shouldn’t be arguing about biology.

Can ask you to explain the worldwide binary representation of the genders part?

What are the two representations?

There are probably 200 million people worldwide who don't fit the binary representation of the genders

You are conflating sex and 'gender'
Sex is binary. Male and female.

Gender is stereotypes of masculine and feminine behaviours. Most often used to keep females subservient and oppressed.

As I said, why not test the genetics/chromosomes of those who claim to be trans?

Sexual development disorders are not proof of 'trans' which is not innate at all.

There is no special internal feeling of 'woman' that a man can have too.

You cited an opinion piece. It even says so in the title

There is and has never been a case of a person with 2 sets of functional gonads.

They either are functional (produce gametes) or they are not functional. (do not produce gametes) since gametes are produced by meiosis females will only ever produce gametes with an X, males produce gametes with both.

Besides DSDs are not gender identities, DSDs fall into either male DSDs or female DSDs, trans people are unambiguously either male or female unless they have a DSD, in which case it is the DSD and not the trans identity responsible for ambiguous genitalia.

There are probably 200 million people worldwide who don't fit the binary representation of the genders

As a pp has said, you are repeatedly conflating sex and gender.

Sex is binary, male and female.

Gender is, IMO, a manifestation of social sterotypes, some of which have arisen due to the differences in biology between males and females.

Your 200million figure came from the erroneous calculation of SCA and DSD frequencies. So you connected a number derived from genetic sex (albeit incorrect) with an argument about gender.

I would argue that there are billions of people who ‘don’t fit the binary representation of the genders’ because we all have varied personalities independent of our biological sex. This is literally a feminist perspective.

Still doesn’t mean sex isn’t binary.

I have a brother in law with a dad and he has married and they adopted a child. He doesn’t like being dragged into the trans debate because he says it’s a’hardware’ problem and not to do with an inner identity.

"The likelihood of a trans woman being abused if she were to use the gents is far higher than the likelihood of her suddenly deciding to out herself as "Assigned Male At Birth" and create a scene when using the ladies."

I don't give a shiny shit. The transwoman does not belong in my facilities!

Happy to try to answer any questions honestly as someone who transitioned as fully as medicine allowed (which then or now is not literally a sex change) half a century ago.

I was I believe in the first 100 people to do so in the UK. Not that many of us are left these days,

Just to clarify transgender is not these people but a deliberately named term to effectively put a nicer twist on those who cross dress for fun or to impose their identity onto others and now wish to do that full time and under the power of the law.

Often they transition at great expense to their family as the most common age is in their 40s and married with a wife and children. See the heartbreaking transwidows threads in here which are all involving these things in very sad detail.

Some of these people clearly have an identity disorder where they can only get sexual pleasure by believing that they are women and forcing others to believe it by coercion. Hence the anger at any misuse of pronouns.

These are usually exclusively male. This is unquestionably a major factor in the explosion of numbers in older adults over the past decade. But not the only thing going on out there.

The other group are kown as transsexual.

This is the medical term for those who have severe sex based bodily dysphoria and who usually emerge much earlier in life and by puberty will be in visble distress and need some kind of medical support.

Indeed puberty often makes it worse for transsexuals and improves things for trasgender so they can defer transition for years.

There are huge differences between these two groups. In almost every respect you can think of. Which is why transgender are very keen to call the word transsexual a slur and are demanding it be replaced. Much as they are demanding the word woman be redefined.

Transsexuals (both male and female - the split has been always around 70% - 30% since the first UK clinic opened in around 1960) account for only about 7% of cases.

These are covered by the Gender Recognition Act where the word transsexual is included as a definition as medical assessment is required. Doctors told parliament 20 years ago whe it was passed that about 5000 people - on the sex based split as above - would qualify, They knew it was rare.

In fact just under that number actually did. Indeed two decades on despite years of campaigns out there the number from the 67 million UK population ewho have used the GRA remains just 5871..

adesias
"Gender is a societal construct and is should therefore not be limited to a genetics reasoning."

It depends doesn't it, whether you are using gender to mean sex. Because no one is disputing that gender is a social construct.

How you get from gender is a social construct to sex is not binary is with pretty basic logic fails and very muddled thinking.

The binary drives sexual dimorphism, male and female are distinct because of it, but even with no physical or behavioural distinction ( secondary sex characteristics) between the sexes at all there would still be male and female ( primary sex characteristics)

Perhaps you are confusing secondary sex characteristics with sex? There is a small amount of overlap between male and female populations since every one falls on a normal distribution curve for characteristics.

But again. This does not correlate with trans identities.

Transgender is basically all the other things added together and an identity expressing gender stereotypes. Not a medical condition.

There is no way these things should be equivocated as finally politicians are starting to see. As the health care needs of the 7% are incompatible with the desire for self expression of the 93%.

Not saying either of these two things are more important or real. Just entirely different and it benefits neither by weakening the medical and psychiatric core support to let freedom of expression blossom when that support is essential to transsexuals - and I suspect would help many transgender see things more clearly if it lasted more than five minutes.

As transsexuals appear far more based in reality and content just to be free of dysphoria and live quietly and are actually hated by the transgender ideology and termed truscum much as active women who understandably oppose gender identity politics in play here get called TERFs.

You've written a lot of illogical, but wordy, posts, very late at night, while seeming overweeningly proud of it. Dare I ask what fueled this?

I rather want some brightly coloured pens to mark this up, but I may have to settle for abusing italics and bolding.

Let's recap something. You're clearly arguing that sex in mammals is a spectrum. (It isn't.)
Yet at the same time, you are arguing that sexually abusive and violent behaviour in humans is a binary between a) everyone in a building treating each other with respect, and b) rape!

There are a fair few sexual offences other than rape, and beyond that, it is perfectly possible for male people to be deliberately intimidating to female people without it meeting the threshold for criminal prosecution. And shared, mixed-sex toilets facilitate it all.

Let's consider voyeurism. Have you not heard of it?

And what is this focus on heels? Do you think clothes are a binary, too? Are heels compulsory for transwomen? Can we call the police on any male person in a women's changing room or toilet who isn't wearing heels?

(Have you ever even met anyone trans?)

www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/secret-recording-store-mall-antelope-valley-palmdale-restroom/2061060/

extract from 2013
Charges were filed Tuesday against a man who wore a wig and women's clothing to disguise himself as he allegedly used a concealed camera to record "hours" of video of women in a Los Angeles-area department store restroom.Jason Pomare, 33, of Palmdale, was arrested Saturday after customers contacted security officers at a Macy's store to report a man in the women's restroom. The security officers contacted a deputy, who was on patrol at the Antelope Valley Mall (map) when he saw a man matching the subject's description leave the store.When the deputy found the man hiding in a mall storage area, the subject was wearing a wig, women's clothing and bra, according to a statement from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department."The deputy noticed he was wearing a wig and appeared to have breasts," said Sgt. Brian Hudson, of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.Pomare (pictured, right) was charged Tuesday with six counts of unlawful use of a concealed camera for purposes of sexual gratification. After his arrest, investigators said a video camera found in his purse had "hours" of video of women using the restroom inside the store.Back in 2013, it was a different time, so the women called security. These days, there are notices telling women that if they think someone shouldn't be in the women's toilets, they should shut up and not think about it. How do we tell the difference between someone who just wants the toilet, and a man dressing up?

You refer to women attacking male transitioners.

Well, if that happens, why do male transitioners want to risk using the women's toilets? If women are going to attack male transitioners anywhere, it is reasonable to assume women will be aggressive in places we expect will be female-only. So why are male transitioners risking it?

The customary reply might be "those toilets are safer for them than the men's".

But! if the men's toilets are too dangerous for male transitioners, why do trans activists and users on transgender forums encourage female transitioners to use men's toilets?

How can men's toilets be simultaneously too dangerous for male transitioners, and yet safe for female transitioners? Have you not heard of corrective rape of female transitioners and lesbians? Not watched Boys Don't Cry with Hilary Swank?

And if it's just about wanting to go to the toilet, why have various male transitioners refused to use the all-gender/unisex toilets at one airport, in order to walk all the way across the same airport to use the female-only facilities? If it was just wanting to use the toilet, they'd have been delighted to see the inclusive provision and used that!

Oh, and as for your claim that male people would be incapable of violence in heels (heels are not compulsory for transitioners... Are you saying that transwomen owe us femininity?)

here are three transwomen in heels and a female relative having a fight with a young man. They also assaulted two police officers.

Court report: courtnewsuk.co.uk/transgender-thugs-attack-after-fanny-remark/

Video footage: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5884039/Gang-four-women-repeatedly-kicks-punches-man.html#v-4683996533267254510

Trans women, for the largest majority, are suffering in their "assigned" roles as men, and are suffering abuse in their "self assumed" identities as women. Are they doomed to suffer, or are we giving them some slack and let them be.

What are you doing here? Why aren't you on a male-dominated forum telling men to be kinder to men who identify as transgender and welcome them into their spaces? You should be telling those men to stop abusing those men who identify as transgender. Men not accepting feminine or trans-identifying men is nothing to do with women.

I have a brother in law with a dad and he has married and they adopted a child

That's not okay! That's really really not okay in the slightest, in what country is that even legal?... oh wait, I think you meant to type DSD. 😅

Are they doomed to suffer,

That is entirely in their hands. If the only way to alleviate transwomen's suffering is to make women uncomfortable and unsafe then fuck that shit. Women can have boundaries and transwomen can take responsibility for their own feelings instead of outsourcing their mental health to women as if it isn't the height of entitled, arrogant male privilege to do so.

ALL OF THIS 👏🏼