Liz v Rishi

[2Rebecca]

This has got surprisingly complex. I was sure I was team Liz for her work as women's officer in rolling back Mordaunt's anti woman nonsense. Now Mordaunt and even Sue Pascoe ( Tory transwoman who transitioned in Sue's 50s after being married with kids) are positive about Liz and I wonder what sort of nonsense she has agreed to to attract them.

I can’t imagine she’s going to backpedal on the important stuff. Why would she, when she was already firmly on record on all of it, and it’s not like it lost her any ground in the leadership contest? She beat Mordaunt, so why compromise?

I wouldn’t worry about it, so many are backing now

Look at Tugendhat who said he was new etc and he’s backed her

She doesn’t have to offer any of them anything, they are probably just looking at the polls

I hadn't seen the SP news. And I agree it's got complex. Sunak is (supposedly?) very far behind now, perhaps even such that he is saying all the right things re women's rights and dignity, and keeping children safe. Truss seemed to decline to back up Kemi on the self-ID business when Mordaunt was on the ropes in a hustings too. I don't think Kemi is going to say who she's backing.

It's got interesting anyway.

Truss didn’t want to look like she was engaging in a pile-on. That was the right thing to do.

Sunak is saying the right things but he doesn’t have a record of delivery in this area. Maybe he means it.

Either way, we’re better off than if Mordaunt had won it. Or, I think, Hunt, or Shapps, or Tugendhat.

Maybe they are hoping for jobs in the new government where they will be able to influence future policy in the direction they desire.

I can’t imagine she’s going to backpedal on the important stuff.

She backpedals all the time, though. It's what she does. It took her about two seconds to do a 180 degree turn from being a committed Remainer to being a zealous Brexiteer. I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her.

Out of all potential candidates, including opposition at GE, I am fine with Truss, maybe Sunak too probably

But on this issue she is far less concerning than Starmer

Or Mordaunt

‘She backpedals all the time, though. It's what she does. It took her about two seconds to do a 180 degree turn from being a committed Remainer to being a zealous Brexiteer.’

Maybe. She’s still our best chance of sorting this stuff out. Anyway, ‘Remain’ or ‘Leave’ is a position that might well change in response to the facts. That female people exist, well, the facts are the facts.

We should worry about it, as Liz has shown herself to be consistently two faced on this issue?

1. Appointment of Mike Freer & her willingness to accept the inclusion of Trans people in the Conversion Therapy Bill despite well published concerns about Transition itself being a form of Conversion Therapy, and rising numbers of female detransitioners.
2. The February letter to EHRC Chair, Lady Falkner, where Liz refused to grant her support for an amended EHRC Statutory Code which would clarify

legal ambiguities around single sex spaces & instead said, “The Government has no interest in changing the current situation where transgender people are able to use facilities of their chosen gender.”

1. Penny Mordaunt Endorsement (no need to say more).
2. Trying to seek an endorsement from the LGBT Conservatives (a group closely associated with Stonewall)

As Kay Burley said last week, will the real Liz Truss stand up?

Are they "supporting" what Liz stands for, or do they just have more against Sunak? I suspect it's more of a case of supporting the least worst option.

This doesn’t concern me but we all react / interpret differently

Who would you prefer as the candidate now or Starmer at next GE?

I don’t mind Sunak, I prefer some policies over others - is it Sunak you’d prefer or other candidate?

@Kazzyhoward They have more against Sunak, I think, which I suppose is a personality issue, and sometimes certain people resonate, however I'm surprised at just how many passes GC Women are prepared to Liz Truss on her Gender Critical flip flopping, and lack of detailed policy around what she intends to do for Women, if elected.

Yes, Rishi screwed up on the Julia Hartley Brewer interview in March, but since then, seems to have brushed up a lot and come with detailed policies to resolving some of the thornier aspects of the sex and gender conflicts.

He started off his campaign vowing to resolve the language issues, protecting words like "women" and "mother", has said he wants to review the Equality, Act with a view to amending the Statutory Code, and also has promised a shake-up of sex education in schools to ensure children are shielded from inappropriate material.

Liz just comes up with vague promises. People need to look behind the curtain and scrutinise Liz very clearly, and ask what she's done for Women, since rejecting Self ID in 2020.

Bit worried about Mike Freer supporting her, he seems quite convinced that she will do things his way.

@MarshaBradyo - You don't think it's concerning when a Minister directs the EHRC to produce guidance that is “aligned" with a FAULTY code rather than with the Equality Act 2010? Interesting.

Going forward, I think I would prefer Sunak. Economically, he seems more across the detail, and the people who surround hum don't make me shudder as much as Jacob Rees Mogg, Penny Mordaunt and Nadine Dorries.

I think we should all be very worried, honestly. We are relying on her past firm stance on rejecting Self ID, but since then, everything she's done has incrementally undermined Women and Children's Rights: Making it easier and cheaper to obtain a GRC, trying to ensure Transgender people are included in the Conversion Therapy Bill, Saying nothing at all to deter Nicola's Sturgeon from embarking on her ill informed Scottish GRC's which are based on Self ID, and allow under 18's into opposite sex schools, and now saying transgender people can use facilities of their choice, which goes against whats she's said publicly and further undermines female safety and privacy.

sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Open-letter-to-boris-johnson-and-liz-truss.docx.pdf

Hateful No because it was the government position at the time of the letter, which was February, but I haven’t got involved as others have so top line

I don’t think she can direct to a new legislation that doesn’t exist yet, it’s not what any individual who is representing a government position can do.

Maybe I’m missing what you wanted though. What did you want to see written?

It doesn’t mean there aren’t inconsistencies at the moment that cannot be improved though

Mordaunt has backed her as have nearly the whole former cabinet - has this been returned with an appointment pledge?

I may have missed it but all these MPs are hopefuls because they believe Truss will win.

As I said even Tugendhat has now done the same and he was anti everyone pretty much

I suspect it will go like this: the trans-rights Tories will get their conversion therapy bill, but it will be watered down. They won’t get childhood transition - that’s on its way out. They won’t get GRA reform, but they’ll keep the GRA. Single sex spaces will be legal, not mandatory. Free speech protections for gender critical people will be strengthened. Prisons and rape crisis shelters will be encouraged to be single sex, and sports will evolve themselves back to single sex.

What am I missing?

It’s a simple choice for people like Mordaunt: stand on their principles and be a back-bencher, or compromise and be in the Cabinet and continue to progress their careers. We know Mordaunt has never met a principle she couldn’t see from the other side of the aisle, so...

True

Mordaunt as leader is much worse than merely keen to join cabinet

They’ve all seen the fall from favour she had from topping the polls to out due to this issue. I doubt anyone wants to follow

Exactly, Freer knows he can’t do anything he wants to do from the back benches. He pretended to resign because Johnson was going in a direction he didn’t agree with on LGBT rights, but he could have done that at any point for about six months before the flurry of resignations before Johnson stepped down. He’ll get on any bandwagon but he won’t relinquish power.

Which makes sense to be fair to him. He can’t moderate policy unless he’s in there.

@HatefulHaberdashery

It's not just Rishi's general attitude on gender etc. It's also that a disproportional number of the 3 million self employed/freelancers/casual workers excluded from covid support were women, which also gives an indication of his general thoughts/opinions on women, especially those working part time, or having part time self employments who were basically screwed by the way he and his Treasury designed the support schemes. I.e. a very overt assumption that "hubby" would support "wifey" and she didn't need support because she was just earning "pin money" for her "hobby" job!

I wouldn't trust Liz as far as I could throw her.

I don’t really trust any politicians completely with this (or many other issues). The wins so far have been great but it all feels quite fragile. People like Penny Mordaunt may be hoping that the government will be so consumed with fighting inflation, strikes, the energy crisis etc that they can quietly slip things through under the radar or at least stop any reforms to the way the new children’s clinics are run or in education.

I will not consider anything a win until we are further ahead than we were in 2010.