Tom Daley challenged about trans athletes in the Guardian

[InvisibleDragon]

This article is an extensive interview with Tom Daley, including coverage of his opinion on inclusion vs fairness.

Relevant excerpts:
In June, speaking at the British LGBT awards, where he was named Sports Personality of the Year, he condemned the decision of Fina (the administrative body for international water sport) to ban trans athletes who have been through any part of male puberty from elite women’s competition. Daley said when he heard the ruling, “I was furious. Anyone that’s told that they can’t compete or can’t do something they love just because of who they are, it’s not on. It’s something I feel really strongly about – giving trans people the chance to share their side.”

For so long, Daley has been regarded as a national treasure. But as he takes a more active role in the charged debate about trans athletes, it is inevitable that opinions about him will become divided. In an interview with GB News, former Olympic swimmer Sharron Davies responded to Daley’s speech by suggestingh that as a male athlete he doesn’t have any skin in the game: “Tom is male and this does not affect him in the slightest … I think we have to listen to the women, and Fina were the first governing body since 2015 to actually poll their female athletes and listen to their coaches.”
...
Does he think that ultimately inclusion trumps fairness? “No, of course not. But, as human beings, we have to be a little bit more thoughtful before banning people completely from something. If kids are doomed to never be able to do what they love, they may well just give up.” I mention a 2020 study that found trans women retain a 12% advantage in running tests even after taking hormones for two years to suppress their testosterone. “You just have to do all of those studies and have the full understanding before you make any decisions like that. If they find out it takes five years, fine, five years. If it takes six years, fine, then six years. But so much goes into it rather than just being able to make a decision based on one study.”

Your thinking sounds more nuanced than the statement you made at the awards ceremony, I say. “It is more nuanced. Having a conversation is different from having 30 seconds to say something. But overall I still stand by what I said – trans people should never be banned from sport.”

Points of interest:

• This is a long feature not a sports feature
• The journalist has clearly done his research and pushes hard on this topic. Could have pointed out that trans women are still able to compete in the male (sex) category, but you can't have everything
• This is the Guardian not thr Observer
• Includes quote from Sharron Davies
• Separates gay and trans rights
• Tom acknowledges that his opinions have changed (a bit)
• The journalist, Simon Hattenstone has written lots of features about prison safety. Could he also be interested in tackling the trans prisoners issue? (Pure speculation, but we can hope)

That sounds much better than usual for the Guardian, but I'll just add that Simon Hattenstone signed the letter about Suzanne Moore that triggered her leaving.

Interesting, Suzanne left before the sports stuff really hit the fan. Perhaps he’s also had a rethink.

Trans people have never been banned from sports. A MtF transsexual is free to partake in the men's categories.

There is a deliberate use of ambiguous language. He doesn't have the courage to say "trans women shouldn't be banned from female categories", because he knows that's controversial.

No one's banning trans people from sport though- they can still compete in the correct biological category if I've understood correctly. That's fairness and inclusion right there.

The bit where TD says if it takes five years, fine & if it takes six years, also fine. I imagine he's talking about testosterone suppression and the point where its advantages disappear. What happens if that's never, Tom? Also fine? Because that's the truth of it - the advantages conferred by testosterone in sport never disappear during an athlete's career.

Is Tom one us gender critical types after all?

Not one trans athlete is banned from sport. They are banned from competing unfairly and in the wrong category.

It's not perfect but it seems like a big step, especially when interviewing a "National hero" at the time of a major sporting competition. No mention of surrogacy either, but it does feel like there's been a bit of a change in the editorial line.

Could be the beginning of Golden Bridge time?

Just read it. He is still a hypocrite. It’s not about trans rights, it’s about womens rights and he ignored that completely. LGB has a direct conflict with T and being kind doesn’t wash any more.

It's a sign of more considered thinking. Gottman's theory would propose that TD should be supported for this and in taking his thinking further.

It's entirely in line with the advice given about how to engage with and support people in communities to which you don't ordinarily belong.

There has to be a golden bridge in Sun Tzu terms otherwise people will fight to the death when there's no viable escape route. So, people who've previously been all about the #BeKind need to know that they can rethink this, especially in some contexts like sports (in this case).

A different take on why people need golden bridges from an anti-vaxxer perspective and using what is known about perpetrating cons/fraud:

There seem to be some misunderstandings about the necessary qualities, experience, and skillset of anybody who'd aspire to be a bridge between perspectives and communities.

There has been some helpful research in this area. This article is an overview of it in one contentious area and wider lessons might be drawn from that experience. Interestingly, the research is grounded in why cons/fraud are so successful.

Having some degree of status within the group that you seek to influence and being seen to be trustworthy seem to be very important for anyone who aspires to influence perspectives. To this end, it would plausibly help to have a realistic view of yourself and how others perceive you.

Goffman observed that all “marks” eventually come to understand that they have been defrauded. But strangely, they almost never complain or report the crime to the authorities. Why? Because, Goffman argues, admitting that you have been conned is so deeply shameful that “marks” experience it as a kind of social death – the painful end of one of the many social roles we all play.
…
Within those groups, we can pinpoint influential members who may be turning their backs on Covid denialism, and encourage them in their journey. We can message them offering support, particularly if our reference groups overlap – whether that means sharing the same home town, or practising the same faith. The more shared social space, the better. We might offer to back them up if they get trolled for expressing misgivings about Covid denialism. Or we could let them know that we would admire them for telling the truth.

Those people may not have a television audience of millions, but they nonetheless have the potential to act as “coolers” for those in their reference groups – both online and off. The higher their status within the groups, the more influence they will have in reconciling their fellow travellers to the reality of the pandemic, perhaps enabling them to rejoin society, or at least preventing them from endangering the rest of us.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/09/convince-anti-vaxxers

I learn so much from your posts EmbarrassingHadrosaurus. Thank you.
Exasperating as it is, we're going to have to welcome back late to facts, science and critical thinking. those who embraced trans extremist ideology as harm to children and women's rights and safety get elevated over the unthinking ""be kind" mantras.

those, late to that should say.

Thank you: I find the research in this area fascinating (even tho' I do confuse Gottman and Goffman on a regular basis).

Helen Joyce has frequently said that we have to be focused on what we want and keep our eyes on the prize for that. The Denton playbook, allied with the #BeKind #NoDebate strategy has been tremendously successful and allowed some damaging inroads to be made in the Civil Service and organisations.

We have to have that golden bridge back when for people realise what it is they've been promoting and supporting and the harm that's been done in their name.

“If kids are doomed to never be able to do what they love, they may well just give up.”

Indeed. Hopefully he’ll eventually see that that statement refers to a wider group of people than just the one he is talking about 🙄

He still either does not get it or is lying.

Trans people are not banned from sports. Males are banned from women's sport. They can still participate in sport, against other males.

This was a disappointing interview by Simon Hattenstone IMO. Came across as disingenuous faux naivety on him being ‘astonished’ at the ‘level of fury’ as if both sides are equalling being threatened with violence, having the police called on them, being charged, losing jobs, afraid to speak, losing safe spaces etc.

He’s intelligent enough to read up on the issues so either hasn’t bothered or is biased.

The level of fury between trans rights activists and gender-critical feminists astonishes me, I say

It is difficult to imagine a Guardian journalist taking the same approach to any other group with a protected characteristic campaigning for their rights.

An able-bodied journalist being astonished that wheelchair users are angry about restrictions on their movement? A white journalist astonished about BLM protestors getting a bit heated?

They so clearly think that women's rights are a non-issue.

"How can understanding people's feelings be a bad thing?" Tom Daley asks, wide-eyed with astonishment. Which people, Tom?

Agree. But also this is a strange point - what’s the usual age you really get into training competitively? I suppose it will vary sport to sport, but say if you’re identifying as trans at 10 and then going onto puberty blockers you’re unlikely to be able to be competitive in a sport? In terms of teenagers, a good chunk of the ones identifying as trans have undiagnosed mental health problems and sometimes diagnosed or undiagnosed ASD/autism. Are these teenagers usually the ones also exercising for 1-3 hours a day and able to compete most weekends? I wouldn’t say so. Sport requires a lot of mental resilience as well as physical fitness. So it’s a mythical group that he is saying will be put off even trying.

Although that argument could very neatly be used to champion the needs of girls to have female role models in single sex/sex segregated sports.

If girls see that the only people to be successful and the only ones to win records, medals and prize money/sponsors are those born male then they're indeed, likely to give up.

@ARoombaOfOnesOwn

In terms of teenagers, a good chunk of the ones identifying as trans have undiagnosed mental health problems and sometimes diagnosed or undiagnosed ASD/autism. Are these teenagers usually the ones also exercising for 1-3 hours a day and able to compete most weekends?

I've known quite a few people with ASD, teenagers and adults, who are capable and competitive sportspeople. I think the focus and singlemindedness that sometimes comes with ASD lends itself well to sport.

This idea of it taking five or six years is interesting. I realize he was soewhat just taking those times as examples. But realistically, if that is the kind of time-frame involved, what does that mean for the person trying to be competitive?

In terms of leisure sports, that is a long time not playing at all when it would be pretty straightforward to keep playing as a man.

And for serious sports, I tend to think that being out of it for five or six years would just be the end of their career for most athletes.

It seems like he really hasn't bothered to think it through.

Glosswitch is brilliant about this on twitter

twitter.com/glosswitch/status/1556014455326138368?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email

For those not on twitter, she says this:

"One of the things that annoys me most about this "younger people are so much cooler about gender" line is the absolute failure to apply an analysis which takes into account the different lifecycle experiences of men and women

Do Tom and Simon think today's older women are thinking "yeah, gender norms have been brilliant for me! Totally worth the care work and pensions gaps!" Or could they have a less superficial view than men of what it means to be non-conforming, starting with women saying 'no'?

Older women may have particular reasons, related to lifecycle experiences, to know both that biological sex matters and that endless demands placed on women to be kind and inclusive are just an extension of female socialisation.

This isn't the same as some older men being a bit pissed off about pronouns cos it's "a bit different". It's oldee women being pissed off because they've noticed it's not different at all - apart from an added injunction on speaking about sex-based exploitation.

Men can backslap about 'the young' being more progressive all they like but neither Simon nor Tom's generation of women will live to see actual economic equality. Ending actual structural exploitation is just too much of a bother"

Ffs! Nobody's banning trans athletes!!! And WTF does it have to do with him, he's male 🙈🙈🙈

I’m guessing neither of them want to end up on the “wrong side of history” when they were both assuming ( being male) that they were on the right side. Denial plausibility imo.

And for serious sports, I tend to think that being out of it for five or six years would just be the end of their career for most athletes.

It seems like he really hasn't bothered to think it through

No. Anyone pushing that line is not thinking it through at all.

It is like all those who fail to see the massive elephant in the room. That elephant being transitioned males who are decades older still able to compete with young females and hold their own…… when no females that age are anywhere near their performance.

Well, imagine that!

Tom clearly cannot understand that the more ‘middle aged transitioned males’ appearing in the female sports categories and winning, is not quite the proof of no advantage that Tom thinks it will be.

@JulesJules She's spot on, isn't she? She always gets to the crux of the matter. I'm looking forward to her book coming out.