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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sonia Sodha pulls all the threads together in the Observer today…

58 replies

diningiswest · 31/07/2022 08:45

Another great article in a great week.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/31/dont-buy-stonewall-line-gender-identity-cant-sack-you-now?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

OP posts:
Chewbecca · 31/07/2022 12:04

A link to this article was posted on the Guardian Opinion FB page which allows comments (unlike the original article), a couple of interesting ones below (male posters):

I have no idea why the Observer gives this hectoring, crude, tub-thumping journalist airtime week after week to air her anti-trans propaganda. Sort it out Guardian/Observer.

Just a reminder that Bailey LOST her case against Stonewall. £551k to receive £22k plus interest from her chambers for hurt feelings is not the victory the TERs are trumpeting.

FrancescaContini · 31/07/2022 12:06

Thanks, Sonia. You’ve always maintained a very sensible, clear position on the issue.

Schoolchoicesucks · 31/07/2022 12:10

WarriorN · 31/07/2022 10:08

Letter

Oh wow, my MP has signed that letter. Very happy about that.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 31/07/2022 12:17

Floisme · 31/07/2022 11:59

Thanks for the link op - great article as always from Sonia Sodha.

And thanks WarriorN for the letter from Labour MP and peers. It took me a while to find it as it seems to be in the NHS section rather than in 'Letters' but take a bow: Tonia Antoniazzi, Feryal Clark, Marsha de Cordova, Rosie Duffield, Julie Elliott, Mary Glindon, Diana Johnson, Steve McCabe, Dianne Hayter, Philip Hunt, Estelle Morris, David Triesman, Tony Young.

Great article from Sonia.

Good news about the Labour MPs and Lords writing this letter, but as ever I look in vain for the name of my own MP, who is one of the best fence-sitters in the business. Hmm

minsmum · 31/07/2022 12:26

My MP signed which is interesting as I have told her and canvassers for the Labour repeatedly why I won't vote for them.

on a different note I was walking my dog this morning and one of my neighbours stopped me to ask if I had read in the papers about the Tavistok. We normally talk about the weather

Xenia · 31/07/2022 12:32

Thanks for the link the Guardian article which includes

"One day we may look back and wonder at how a regressive and controversial worldview – that being a woman is not a scientific fact but variously an inner feeling or conformity to sexist stereotypes of femininity – came to exert so much influence over so many public institutions and professions"

grafittiartist · 31/07/2022 12:41

So pleased to see my MP's name on that letter.

SeaRabbit · 31/07/2022 12:58

Share token for the Times article:

Clear pledge to wipe out woke culture ‘nonsense’.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f2818710-0f7d-11ed-93cf-b011fa7fe86b?shareToken=3bc13a4aef3a143f50d56ac4e5fef43cc_

maranella · 31/07/2022 13:06

Absolutely fantastic to see this in The Observer, when it's sister paper, The Guardian has been so sycophantic to the trans lobby in recent years. Thank you Sonia Sodha for such a great article in such clear and unequivocal language.

The opinion piece by Kemi Badenoch in The Times was also very welcome. I'm so grateful to these brave, clever women who have been working away behind the scenes. And yes, I'm grateful to the Tories for being the one party to stand up to this shit. If Labour had got in in 2019 I hate to think where we'd be - but beholden to fucking Stonewall's agenda and with self-ID en route to becoming law, like it is in Scotland with the stupid, captured SNP.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/07/2022 13:11

From the Guardian article you posted, OP.
I am so glad she wrote this:

But by far the worst example has been in children’s healthcare. Gender ideology posits the view that when children express discomfort about their sexed bodies, this must be understood as an indicator of a fixed trans identity that should be immediately affirmed as the basis of any clinical treatment for gender dysphoria. Stonewall claims that children as young as two can have trans identities, which, given they can barely speak, is revealing of the extent to which adult identity politics is being imposed on children who do not conform to regressive gender stereotypes

ScrollingLeaves · 31/07/2022 13:13

Sorry / not the Guardian, The Observer article.

ScreechingEchoChamber · 31/07/2022 13:23

It's far from over.

All we've done so far, in the past 5 years or so, is establish that other viewpoints are possible and permissible. It took so much to get to this point.

At last, we can say 'sex is immutable and sex matters' without being told there is 'no debate'. Women will still get cancelled, isolated, slurred, threatened and abused for saying so, I'm afraid. There is still the risk of arrest from a captured Police force.

But the law is clear that we have the right to discuss, debate and argue the points.

Someone said it's the end of the beginning; I think that's right.

What we have now is the space to talk about the issues. It will be a long, painstaking and probably difficult path forward, I'm sorry. Each instance of institutional capture will have to be raised, examined, discussd - and resistance to change is inbuilt. Nobody likes to backtrack or admit they're wrong, the sunk costs fallacy is astonishingly powerful.

But all the brave trailblazers like Maya and Allison and Rosie and JK and Joanne &c have cleared a place from which we can begin.

So, we begin.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/07/2022 13:23

I live in a labour area. Sadly my (female) MP has not signed.

sweetgrapes · 31/07/2022 14:05

Great article! So much for a niche issue that no one is interested in....

Am off to the LGBA allotment to celebrate.

ValancyRedfern · 31/07/2022 14:09

ScreechingEchoChamber · 31/07/2022 13:23

It's far from over.

All we've done so far, in the past 5 years or so, is establish that other viewpoints are possible and permissible. It took so much to get to this point.

At last, we can say 'sex is immutable and sex matters' without being told there is 'no debate'. Women will still get cancelled, isolated, slurred, threatened and abused for saying so, I'm afraid. There is still the risk of arrest from a captured Police force.

But the law is clear that we have the right to discuss, debate and argue the points.

Someone said it's the end of the beginning; I think that's right.

What we have now is the space to talk about the issues. It will be a long, painstaking and probably difficult path forward, I'm sorry. Each instance of institutional capture will have to be raised, examined, discussd - and resistance to change is inbuilt. Nobody likes to backtrack or admit they're wrong, the sunk costs fallacy is astonishingly powerful.

But all the brave trailblazers like Maya and Allison and Rosie and JK and Joanne &c have cleared a place from which we can begin.

So, we begin.

I agree with this. Outside of our 'bubbles dominant narrative I hear is still the Stonewall/Mermaids one. It's going to be a long haul, but at least we can now speak with less fear for our jobs.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/07/2022 14:16

I agree with this. Outside of our 'bubbles dominant narrative I hear is still the Stonewall/Mermaids one. It's going to be a long haul, but at least we can now speak with less fear for our jobs.

I agree too.

It is so far entrenched in schools not least among the staff.

And so much of the language has now been written into sources of ‘science’ such as NHS websites.

Roseglen84 · 31/07/2022 14:23

I agree OP, wonderful article, shame it didn't allow comments. The only thing she didn't get round to mentioning is the funding from US billionaires that has been uncovered by Jennifer Bilek etc.

ScreechingEchoChamber

It's far from over.

All we've done so far, in the past 5 years or so, is establish that other viewpoints are possible and permissible. It took so much to get to this point.

I completely agree, we still have a long way to go. Unfortunately, many of us are probably suffering from fatigue at this point, because it's taken so much to even get to a point where this is FINALLY being discussed by those who should have been talking about it years ago.

And while I'm incredibly grateful for every bit of 'tide is turning' showing up now, we are still in a David and Goliath situation, where all the major institutions are full steam ahead with this shit. And they won't want to lose face, especially not now that they have employed their very overpaid 'inclusivity and diversion' robot or whatever the hell they are called. It looks bad, especially when they drape themselves in rainbows and feel all smug about it.

Here in Ireland, and several other countries, Self ID is already the law, and 'sex' is nowhere to be found in equality legislation, only 'gender'. We have so far to go to roll back this stuff, so I look on with jealousy quite frankly at the discussions you are having over in the UK.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 31/07/2022 14:28

Also agreeing that this is only the start. Lucy Bannerman in yesterday's Times laid out the brutal reality of the levels of capture and damage in schools:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/065eb3ce-0f70-11ed-93cf-b011fa7fe86b?shareToken=1c12e76c0751a09ad478249e485d0956

However, finally we're allowed to speak out which enables the sharing of evidence and to challenge dodgy data, evidence the dubious nature and self interest of individuals promoting the transing of children & the removal of women's rights to safety from men.
Maybe we've moved from small steps to slightly larger steps?

chipshopElvis · 31/07/2022 14:34

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 31/07/2022 11:12

One day we may look back and wonder at how a regressive and controversial worldview – that being a woman is not a scientific fact but variously an inner feeling or conformity to sexist stereotypes of femininity – came to exert so much influence over so many public institutions and professions.

wow, what a fabulous article

This is also the standout paragraph for me. It concisely summarises my feelings on this matter. Fab article.

Boiledbeetle · 31/07/2022 15:08

FIFTY YEARS OF BEING FEMALE

I spent my first decade thinking that being female was shit. After all I spent most of it being put down, put upon, abused and raped purely due to being female.

I spent my second decade being frustrated about being female. My options seemed to be constantly more restricted than the boys. I was, unsuccessfully, pushed into girls subjects rather than boys subject. Yet even bolshy teen me still had to do gymnastics in a pair of gym knickers whilst the boys played football, unsurprisingly, not in their underpants.

I spent my third decade in a male dominated industry, usually being the only woman in the room. I did my bit to make the life of women entering higher education and work after me less about how shaggable they were and more about the fact they they were capable of doing the job.

I spent my fourth decade still doing my bit but being increasingly looked over for promotion. The assumption of my bosses being that I would no doubt soon grow tired of doing men's work and accept that my rightful place was barefoot and pregnant tied to the kitchen sink.

I have spent my fifth decade seeing the hard fought for progress women had managed to make be picked through and insinuated, denigrated and disparaged by men that are so so angry.

Next week I turn fifty. I had always thought that by the time I reached this grand old age that all the shit I put up with/went through purely due to the fact that I am a female would have been eradicated. That safeguarding of children would be better. That women's healthcare would be better. That women in the workplace would finally have equality. That women would be seen as an entity in their own right and not some lesser version of a man.

And yet as I inched closer to fifty all I could see was that in my lifetime things had gone so very very wrong. Recently I had started to believe that nothing was going to stop this juggernaut of eradicating women.

This past week has seemed surreal. Let's hope it doesn't take my next fifty years to get back to where we should be.

ilovesushi · 31/07/2022 15:51

Great Observer article especially after the gutless and blinkered article in Thursday's Guardian on the Tavistock closure.
www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jul/28/tavistock-gender-identity-clinic-is-closing-what-happens-next
I think that was probably the final nail in the coffin of my decades worth of Guardian readership. Found yesterday's Times very refreshing.

manlyago · 31/07/2022 16:13

Not sure I can ever forgive Labour for their stance on this. Now we just need to hope the SNP can be brought back from the brink.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/07/2022 17:20

A link to this article was posted on the Guardian Opinion FB page which allows comments (unlike the original article), a couple of interesting ones below (male posters)

What's interesting about the same old dishonest TRA spin?

whiteroseredrose · 31/07/2022 17:32

Excellent, clear article!

noway1000 · 31/07/2022 17:48

Floisme · 31/07/2022 11:59

Thanks for the link op - great article as always from Sonia Sodha.

And thanks WarriorN for the letter from Labour MP and peers. It took me a while to find it as it seems to be in the NHS section rather than in 'Letters' but take a bow: Tonia Antoniazzi, Feryal Clark, Marsha de Cordova, Rosie Duffield, Julie Elliott, Mary Glindon, Diana Johnson, Steve McCabe, Dianne Hayter, Philip Hunt, Estelle Morris, David Triesman, Tony Young.

How shocking that there are so few signatures and the way it is cringingly worded makes me feel queasy e.g. 'if we want to form the Government, perhaps we should give the little ladies their stall....'
I am so ashamed I was ever a member of this party.