Met police again

[HellonHeels]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1d1770c-0e62-11ed-93cf-b011fa7fe86b?shareToken=38f66dc88f91e6f5204ad1af13c224a9

Are there actually any met officers who behave decently? This came to light only due to a horrific crime committed by another Met officer.

I think if you ask the hundreds of thousands of white, lower working class girls repeatedly raped by the grooming gangs with the knowledge of police all over the country, I think you'll find the answer is no. 🤔

I can see why they pleaded guilty. Their arrogance and entitlement is plain to see.

Sorry not guilty!!!

I have mixed feelings about this. I think these messages show they are unfit to police and the rape comment is awful but is it criminal? These were messages sent within a private group. Is I would like to know more details about the recipients. I worry that if offensive private messages are criminalised gender critical women (who are already deemed offensive bigots) will be next in line.

The journalist of the article has a Twitter thread on this, one of them says
‘Court told that Neville acted out a “rape fantasy” on a vulnerable, disturbed 15 yo girl, who referred to restraining and pinning her down as a “struggle snuggle”.’

But the article says -
“The men have been charged with sending grossly offensive messages on the communications network between April and August 2019.“

The messages are horrific but the first bit is surely a much more serious crime?

To be clear I’m not disputing the messages charge, I just don’t know why the other bit has been put with it, should it not be a separate charge?

@ARoombaOfOnesOwn yeah it feels a bit dare I say lazy?
finding evidence of the rapes and sexual assaults you've undoubtedly committed is too hard so we'll prosecute you for the messages where you discuss them.

Did you see the additional information on this that wasn't in the main thread?

Warning - this is v offensive. But it’s very important. These officers were on a WhatsApp group with Wayne Couzens before he abducted, raped and murdered Sarah Everard

twitter.com/Fhamiltontimes/status/1552597678516731904?s=20&t=xSVTS5UE9nH1zXw1qe-NEg

I think that that information adds a lot to the credibility of it moving beyond 'bantz,' rhetoric etc.

There does need to be a public discussion about this. Above all, I'd like to know why the Met's recruitment policies don't identify more of these people and use that as an exploration as to whether the value they bring outweighs the harms that they represent for public trust.

I have mixed feelings about this. I think these messages show they are unfit to police and the rape comment is awful but is it criminal? These were messages sent within a private group.

I don't want the police, who are supposed to uphold the law, making "jokes" like this about their colleagues and members of the public and victims of crime. You seem to think this is fine as long as nobody finds out. Wayne Couzens certainly benefitted from nobody outside the force knowing his nickname.
You set a very low bar for public servants

According to the report in The Guardian: Other comments included Cobban and Borders implying that victims of domestic abuse encouraged the physical and psychological torment to which they were subjected, said Edward Brown QC, prosecuting.

“DV victims love it. That’s why they’re repeat victims more often than not,” Cobban allegedly wrote in a message in June 2019.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/28/met-officers-in-wayne-couzens-group-joked-about-assaulting-women-court-told

The Met is a disgrace, and it isn't the only force to be one.

All Coppers are Brilliant.

@ARoombaOfOnesOwn @howdoesatoastermaketoast
Grotesque as it is, assuming the restraint of the 15yo girl was to prevent harm (eg headbanging if she were in a cell, or to prevent her from running into traffic/jumping from a bridge or building etc) & thus witnessed (potentially recorded on CCTV) & by the book - all that is is an accusation from one disgraced PC about another. And yes, absolutely the heinous under-resourcing of MH services that leaves vulnerable individuals in the “care” of the police - though at least children can no longer be placed in cells as “a place of safety” is a scandal. 26% of young people waiting for NHS care are left so long they attempt suicide before they are seen. Hopefully Northamptonshire Police’s trauma-informed custody scheme will be adopted nationwide…

@Brefugee I said in my post they weren't fit to police. I do not believe they are fit to hold any public office. I questioned the criminal charges. At what point do sick jokes and grossly offensive comments become criminal? I'd like to know more details.

Public servants making sick jokes about a) colleagues and b) victims of crime? Too right that should be criminal. in the same way some "jokes" turn out to be hate crimes.

A quick Google finds the law:-

A person is guilty of an offence if he—

(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or

So it is then down to the definition of “grossly offensive”. Which is difficult to define. Sounds like the defending barristers are trying to argue it is just “bad taste” or “a sick joke”.

I guess the jury will get instructions as to what is and what isn’t “grossly offensive” and the they will have to decide. Is talking about tasseling children worse than describing an area as “a Somali shit hole”?

The fact that one of them is a race and diversity custodian shows just how badly the Met has lost their way.

Other issues aside, all public servants agree to abide by Nolan Principles.

Those police officers did not.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-7-principles-of-public-life/the-7-principles-of-public-life--2

@nitronine "assuming the restraint of the 15yo girl was to prevent harm" I am not currently minded to give these men the benefit of the doubt. I'm not saying that they should be prosecuted because of my instincts, just I'm not really feeling the 'assuming everything they did was for the public good the only real problem was the fact he told his friends that he enjoyed the feeling of a distressed restrained girl squirming underneath him' vibe.

Many police officers are excellent people, making our streets safer for men and women. These men not so much...

Thank you @Mumoftwoinprimary

That's helpful and interesting

I am not currently minded to give these men the benefit of the doubt.

me neither. Among my circle of friends (in the UK) nobody trusts the police and it's actually quite shocking, tbh.

And when the police express surprise about this and we tell them? deafening silence. They have brought this on themselves (the lack of trust) and even more shocking is that they don't apparently care. Not one jot.

@howdoesatoastermaketoast

Perhaps I should have said assuming it could be justified as such? It would have been a failing to allow the girl to harm herself & training at certain points dictates the use of restraint is proper.

Certainly they’ve added to “why restraint by officers of the opposite sex should be avoided if possible”.

The one in the dock today is using the it's just bantz and dark humour defence.

His explanation for this:

Speaking about a female colleague, he also said she would 'lead me on then get me locked up when I rape and beat her! Sneaky b'.

Is:

'I was saying she’s the sort of person who would lead you on, sleep with you, then make a false allegation against you,' he said.

‘So really the rape and beat should have been in quotations, but it’s text isn’t it – it’s never grammatically correct.

‘This has totally been blown out of proportion.’

And there is amazement as to why the reporting of rape, the prosecution of rape and the convictions for rape are so low.

And then there are these gems:

I was an exemplary officer,' he added. 'I always turned up to work early, I always dressed smart, made sure my boots were clean. 'My image was perfect and I behaved perfectly with people.

Borders added: 'I admit that I was naive when I first joined the Met. I had a different sense of humour then. 'But meeting people on the job, being involved in delicate matters, it changed what I find funny. 'I still have a dark sense of humour, I still laugh at things that maybe I shouldn't laugh at.'

Borders described his comments as 'dark humour which I appreciate will offend some people'.

He said: 'I was professional on the job and I don't think rape is a joke and I don't think violence against women is a joke.'

He added that he had sent the messages were sent when he had been a training officer and had no experience in domestic abuse cases.

'You can see that the jokes stopped at the end of the year as we all became more mature and experienced,' he said.

Hmm, are we all convinced?

Borders is no longer in the Met (thankfully):

Gesturing toward the dock, he continued: ‘You’ve got officers in there [who are] probably going to lose their jobs over this just because you take exception to certain jokes.’

Well cry me a fucking river you misogynistic pieces of shit.

Did anyone read the quotes from messages about wanting to taser animals and people with LD?

I actually wish I hadn't read them.

Whilst I understand the anxiety around private messages and what constitutes a crime, wishing harm and distress to vulnerable others while you are in a position of power is always, always wrong.

Yes, I did they were revolting. I hope the Court case makes more of those messages and doesn't just gloss over them, sick bastards.

What is they say about people who are cruel to animals.