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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Article by Maya Forstater’s solicitor about her judgment

16 replies

wolfwalk · 26/07/2022 21:24

Maya Forstater’s solicitor, Peter Daly, has written an article on the judgment and what it means for workplaces. Worth a read. twitter.com/peter_daly/status/1551976840063057923

OP posts:
LoobiJee · 26/07/2022 21:53

Thanks for posting this, very interesting and insightful piece.

PearlClench · 26/07/2022 21:59

Excellent, thanks for sharing!

I started highlighting parts but there's so much good stuff in there there's rather a lot:

the holding and manifestation of gender critical beliefs are both protected, and always were

This is not a conflict between gender critical beliefs and trans people: it is a conflict between gender critical beliefs and gender identity beliefs.

'the problem is that many organisations that are moral communities are required, but fail, to undertake the requisite intellectual exercise to interrogate the contours of their own moral code. They fail to understand the complexities of their own particular philosophical position – be it gender identity theory or anything else – or the implications for those who do not ascribe to it or are opposed to it. Without that interrogation, an assumption is all too easily made that the reason they hold their moral code is because it is – and by extension they are - morally right. The extension of this is that anyone who doesn’t share the moral code is as. a matter of ineluctable logic, inevitably morally wrong.'

'The more difficult solution to achieving diversity of belief requires an organisation to recognise that there will be diversity of views within its ranks, to engage with those views, and to foster constructive disagreement so that understanding and resolution can be found. In the short term, this appears oppositional to the practical benefits of inclusion and diversity because disagreement may result in conflict. In reality, though, conflict is not avoided by taking the easy path: it has only been delayed, and in being delayed, allowed to ferment.'

'As Haidt writes in the Righteous Mind (p.332):

“Morality binds and blinds. This is not just something that happens to people on the other side. We all get sucked into tribal moral communities. We circle around sacred values and then share post hoc arguments about why we are so right and they are so wrong. We think the other side is blind to truth, reason, science, and common sense, but in fact everyone goes blind when talking about their sacred objects.”'

...'the consultants appear to have proceeded from the starting point that Ms Forstater was transphobic without even having considered the evidence for it: almost as if the allegation of transphobia was in and of itself enough to conclude the existence of transphobia. It appears that even challenging that proposition was itself deemed to be transphobic:'

'The sex and gender debate is not amenable to a homogenous moral binary. It has contours and complexities, and there are substantial points of conflict between people with opposing beliefs, even within groups of those who share protected characteristics. This is diversity.'

'As a diverse society we are constantly engaged in the mediation of conflicting beliefs. This is, to an extent, what a society is.'

'the nature of disputes of belief is that both sides often genuinely believe they are right. Indeed, in a genuine dispute of protected belief, both sides are right'

'By demonstrating the serious shortcomings that have arisen in the equality industry, the case provides an inoculation against the complacent, lazy and actively discriminatory reliance on illusory moral codes as a shortcut to the effort that needs to be made in creating better workplaces and ultimately a better society.'

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 26/07/2022 22:00

My favourite part was the very clear explanation of why for many LGB people, gender identity beliefs when forced on us are homophobic.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 26/07/2022 22:26

What a good and powerful article. Needs reading by the CEO of every captured business / organisation in the country.

Legospider · 26/07/2022 22:29

Thanks for sharing, really interesting and readable article.

FemaleAndLearning · 26/07/2022 22:55

Thanks need to send to my employer.

DameMaud · 26/07/2022 23:31

Brilliant piece. Thanks for posting!

BellaAmorosa · 27/07/2022 00:03

Thanks for posting @wolfwalk
This is the first bit to catch my eye:

There is no finding (impliedly or otherwise) in the Glennie judgment that, had some hypothetical policy existed, CGD’s conduct would have been lawful. An employer cannot implement a lawful policy permitting unlawful discrimination. An internal policy cannot trump statute.

On another thread, I wondered if workplaces might fall foul of this if they officially encouraged or mandated stating and using preferred pronouns because that would imply a bias against GC employees. Would a policy like that be inherently discriminatory? (👋waves at any passing lawyers...)

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 27/07/2022 00:26

@BellaAmorosa IANAL but in the meantime my instinct is that a policy that said 'add your pronouns to your e-mail signature' wouldn't be enough for you to win a claim of constructive dismissal if you quit without discussing it with management BUT if you were fired for not doing so / being 'managed out' it for being 'a baddie' the written policy would provide super strong evidence for your defence that that was the real problem

BellaAmorosa · 27/07/2022 00:37

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 27/07/2022 00:26

@BellaAmorosa IANAL but in the meantime my instinct is that a policy that said 'add your pronouns to your e-mail signature' wouldn't be enough for you to win a claim of constructive dismissal if you quit without discussing it with management BUT if you were fired for not doing so / being 'managed out' it for being 'a baddie' the written policy would provide super strong evidence for your defence that that was the real problem

This was my thinking - if pronouns are mandated, the implication is that failure to participate will be punished in some way, or participation will be forced. If merely encouraged there is a vaguer implication that non-participation could count against the GC employee. So maybe hostile environment? (Can you tell I'm not a lawyer? 😉)

MaudeYoung · 27/07/2022 07:40

A thoughtful and detailed analysis. It will certainly give employers pause for thought. Well done, Mr Daly.

lanadelgrey · 27/07/2022 07:57

A digested version needs to get into HR Today so that those in charge of all the EDI initiatives and more generally managing staff policies read it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/07/2022 09:15

What an excellent, clear and instructive article.

GrabbyGabby · 27/07/2022 09:52

This is a fab article. It lays out rrally clearly the dangers of employers picking sides in matters of faith and politics.

This is why the very lazy thinking of right wing = bad, left wing = good is so very dangerous. Start with this false premise, enact politiscised policies and you can very quickly find yourself on the wrong side of the law, even though you may have started with the very best of intentions.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/07/2022 12:49

Bumping this as it's even more relevant in the light of Allison's victory.
There are huge implications (none of them good) for organisations taking advice on any aspects of their business from the likes of Stonewall or any of the other trans extremist organisations.

PrinceYakimov · 27/07/2022 17:26

Superb article.

I can't help imagining that Peter Daly and the other solicitors who take on these GC cases must be staggered by how readily so many organisations threw people under the bus on a matter of fundamental rights. I bet never in their wildest dreams did they ever envisage such a rich seam of practice opening up.

I hope they continue to sue all these orgs into the ground and become immensely rich in the process - they deserve it!

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