Transracial vs Transgender?

[ANewNameANewDay]

I've been on MN for yonks but haven't wandered across this board too much, so apologies if this has been done before.

I recently saw a video of a podcast where a Black woman is interviewing a "transracial" White man who has altered his physical appearance to look Asian. The man fully identifies as the latter ethnicity, complete with monolid surgery and braided hair (?) to authenticate himself.

The woman openly states that this is problematic in that it undermines the struggles of minority ethnicities by glorifying what is merely a caricature of their identities. I absolutely agree with her.

So why are we openly accepting transgender ideology whilst simultaneously recognising that transracial ideology is absolutely nuts - despite the foundations of both being identical? Why are more people not drawing the same comparisons? (If they are, help me find them!)

The comments of the video agreed wholeheartedly with the woman on the podcast however no one seemed to be questioning the read-across in the trans debate (fear of being "cancelled" perhaps)? Is this just the world we live in now?

And where do we draw the line? Is the University of Cambridge obligated to give me a degree because I identify as a doctor of medicine? Can I pick up someone else's child because I identify as their parent? Rock up to the euro finals because I identify as the England captain?

It's nuts. I'll definitely be spending some time reading through the wealth of threads on this board to educate myself further but holy smokes has this pissed me off!

On the other hand, many people have mixed and varied heritage.

This brings to mind the idea that if you have a human male and a human female, and they have a child, the child being a mix of the characteristics of its parents will be a mix of male and female, so naturally will be intersex.

I love playing around with the logic of trans activism, it takes you to mad places.

European isn't a nationality. And there is no such thing as a European passport.

By virtue of being born in Europe though, you are "European".

But isn’t it interesting that the regardless of self-ID, he must apply to get Slovakian citizenship and that process is controlled by the Slovakian people.

it’s also instructive to compare the requirements to be fulfilled for “trans-nationality” (several years residency; independently verified language skills; clean criminal record etc) with the preferred route of Self-ID for transgender people.

"European isn't a nationality. And there is no such thing as a European passport."

Fine, then I'm identifying as Greek. I love Greece, I've spent a lot of time there, I speak a little - I have about the same claim to being Greek as Pippa Bunce does to being female.

Trans racial is just daft, as there is no societal structures that would lead someone to believe they are a Nigerian trapped in a Slovakians body.

This sounds so ignorant. Of course a Slovakian can also be a Nigerian, what you wrote is quite racist. Or do you mean a black person cannot be Slovakian or a white person Nigerian? Many of us have complex ethnic ancestry and transcultural experiences and have been dealing with these topics for several decades. Then come the uneducated woke brigade and lecture us 😆

There is no problem with men presenting 'feminine' (whatever that is) or women as 'masculine' (again whatever stereotypical notion this is). In fact being free to present in any which way should be encouraged. This does not eliminate biological sex. Trans women are not women they are biological men who dress and act in ways that are historically associated with being female. They should be free and supported to do this but please for heave's sake stop the bullshit about biological sex not 'existing'. FFS.

That's right. The two different sexes lasted for one generation, until they gave rise to a 'mixed' sex offspring, being neither one sex or the other. Or both at the same time.

Of course a Slovakian can also be a Nigerian, what you wrote is quite racist.

A Nigerian can be Slovakian, but can never be of the Slav race. And vice versa.

If we can, I am 1960s Sophia Loren trapped in the wrong body.

Same here except there appears to be 4 Sophias trapped in my body!

I agree OP. I can see no difference and as Helleofabore said, we never get a proper answer to this question.

Isn't it considered transphobic now to suggest that transgenderism is based on stereotypes?

Can you supply any evidence to support your assertion that "We also know certain things about hormone levels etc that can effect how masculine or feminine an individual feels"? Seems unlikely that there is any, as this sort of statement is based on pure gender woo, not science. What constitutes a feeling of masculinity or femininity? Isn't such a feeling just based on stereotypes, which are now considered transphobic?

If you're a minority race, you're taught from a young age to be proud of it and defend the struggles of your ancestors, and rightly so.

What's a minority race? Aren't white Europeans the minority?

There are over a billion people in India alone, nevermind the rest of the South Asian subcontinent.
I think there are almost a billion black people in the continent of Africa alone, excluding the northern region.
There are over a billion people in China alone........ you get the picture.
I mean we outstrip white people by quite a margin. 😆

I can't remember where, Nonny, but there was something about the word 'minority' being used to mean a disadvantaged or less powerful group within a hierarchy - hence women can be classed as a 'minority' despite being (I think just slightly more than) half the population.

I do wish people would use words more clearly, or stop redefining the meanings to mean something else, but anyway.

If I went to Nigeria presumably I’d be in a minority but here in rural England I am in the majority. It is all relative isn’t it?

Minorities can enjoy advantages such as the aristocracy (or the trans sex/gender identifying?) in the UK, or again UK, be disadvantaged such as the traveller and gypsy communities amongst many others. Trans ethnicity/race identifying people are disadvantaged everywhere as far as I know.

If a person wants to identify as having European nationality who are we to say she can’t, isn’t the whole point nowadays that we mustn’t let facts, like Europe not being a nation state, get in the way of individual subjective feelings?

That's the defination of minority though it means the least amongst.... (I'm not saying it's right) but that is the case on forms "ethnic minority". You can't expect others to be positive about identifying as a race you are not it's a bit mad and confusing.

How will we educate the younger children about race and background if it's OK to make it up as you go along?

But there's plenty of examples throughout human history of minority groups exerting considerable power and control over a majority group. 😵
I mean look at the British Raj in India! 😂

Trying to obscure the fact that both majority and minority groups can treat others with cruelty or prejudice doesn't help anyone in the long-term.

Of course, but I think in that context I'm trying ineptly to describe, 'minority' is used to mean 'disadvantaged' and has nothing to do with the relative size of the group.

Here it is explained:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_group

'A minority group, by its original definition, refers to a group of people whose practices, race, religion, ethnicity, or other characteristics are fewer in numbers than the main groups of those classifications. However, in present-day sociology, a minority group refers to a category of people who experience relative disadvantage as compared to members of a dominant social group'

Confusing, I say.

Trans racial is just daft, as there is no societal structures that would lead someone to believe they are a Nigerian trapped in a Slovakians body

Have you heard of Sandra Laing? She is the daughter of two white parents but looks (is?) black. Her parents had to fight for her to be classified as white, then she had to fight later on to be classified as black.
A film was made about her, it's called 'Skin'.

Minority is a social construct so it can mean whatever we want it to mean, including the complete opposite. Get with the times boomers. 😎

I agree completely with the point but I will paraphrase someone from a previous conversation on this issue. Which was something along the lines of 'leave racism out of it, at least on the internet please, as it's very unlikely to change anyone's mind on the TWAW / GC divide but seems more likely to drag people who are TWAW etc. into thinking opting into race should be ok, or at least more ok.'

@TeleFoam. No that is obviously not what I meant. I am not part of the woke brigade by any stretch. There's a difference between having a complex ethnicity or history and point blank saying there is something innate about my being that is Slovakian even though I have never been there, learnt the language or have ancestors from there. Of course there can be black slovakians, that is so far removed from what I said.

@OldCrone I think you and others may have got me wrong. Maybe I was too tried this morning to come across coherently. I am gender critical. I was just trying to say that we, as gender critical women, understand how the trans movement has gained traction and the things that sway young people into believing they are trans.

That's the gist of it, yep!

I agree, logically there is no difference

tbh I was right down the TWAW rabbit hole a few years ago, I’d have been all over pronouns as being kind etc

but it was a case about not race self ID but age, a guy in I think the Netherlands wanted to change his age officially as he identified as someone much younger. I realised then it’s no more ludicrous than trying to change sex/gender

Reading through this very interesting thread; haven't got to the end yet, but I have post-Covid brain fog so I have to add my two penn'orth while it's in my mind). 1. Race/ethnicity and nationality are two different things. Venn diagram, anyone? (Worry that race could taint nationality was the basis of much 19th and early 20th century 'thinking', and if you add in religion you can find bitter conflicts that still continue.) 2. I saw, months ago, a very funny vox pop tv interview in which a white man asked passers-by if they would agree he could be (some egs, from memory), a range of nationalities, a doctor, 6ft 6in tall, a woman. The only one that people cd not say yes or no to was the last. Does this ring bells for anyone? Back to the thread...

The problem is that, like sex and gender, it's not immediately clear in this discussion whether somebody is talking about ethnicity/DNA which is a biological fact, or nationality, which is a social construct.