I am embracing virtue signalling pronouns in emails

[MsFogi]

I have realised I have made too many assumptions about gender over the years. I had always assumed that Paul (name changed of course) in my company was a man simply on the basis of his appearance (well over 6 foot, well built, big beard, low voice that only someone with an Adam's apple and whose balls have dropped could have). Imagine my relief to find that I have not been misgendering him for over a decade because he has helpfully added his pronouns to his email auto signature - they are he/him/his. There is no company diktat to add pronouns on emails so clearly this is important to Paul or maybe he has been misgendered recently.

So, I thought I would ensure that Paul was not offended on a Teams meeting this afternoon and kicked off the meeting by asking everyone to note that Paul's pronouns are he/him/his and that given that he has stated these that everyone please be sensitive to ensuring that they use them. No one said anything so I think they all took it on board, no one misgendered Paul and I like to think that his move to include his pronouns at work has been embraced in my meeting. Maybe as a result others that attended the meeting will add theirs to their auto signatures too.

[Helleofabore]

I do laugh whenever I see the ‘echo chamber’ phrase used in connection to women discussing the conflicts of another group’s rights demands on our rights.

It really is hilarious that these posters seem to actually believe that their view is both righteous, and that of the majority.

What it shows in reality is that they are merely projecting. They are the ones in the echo chambers repeating nonsense and trying to sell it as kind and as fact.

[TheKeatingFive]

It's a bit much hearing the words echo chamber from the 'no debate' crew.

Ain't no-one more into echo chambers than they are

[PearlClench]

Women's toilets:

www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

'Women’s public toilets have always been somewhat political, either through moral objections, such as the Victorian ideal of a submissive, house-chained wife, or through the fact that women have campaigned for them. And the politics of women’s toilets is still present today within society: for example, UNESCO recommends single-sex toilets in order to boost women’s access to education. In Mumbai in India, there are fewer toilets for women than for men, and women must also pay more than men to use the facilities. This has led to the ‘Right to Pee’ campaign promoted by Indian feminists.'

[ErrolTheDragon]

Bodies do not come presorted by chromosomes or genitalia alone; we could sort them by belly-button type, after all. Their sorting by sex, then, reflects human purposes and interests – those having to do with human procreation. Although these might be crucial human purposes and interests, they are still human ones. To this extent, the primary division of populations into males and females, like the socialisation that creates men and women, is a human ‘construction’

Most dogs can 'sort humans by sex' (obviously they can also sort dogs by sex for their own procreative purposes).

If the people who come up with these wordy idiocies CBA to learn some basic science, perhaps they could at least borrow Occam's razor and stop trying to make things which are really quite simple and objective into complicated incomprehensibilities.

[VestofAbsurdity]

Various bodies with the UN advocate for female, single sex, easily accessible toilets in areas around the world and in refugee camps to protect women and then on the other hand promote mixed sex facilities in the (predominantly) white Western countries. The question that leaps out here is are white western men safer as a demographic to be in women's toilets than the men in those other Countries or refugee camps?

I am not at all comfortable with the message coming from those two differing standards.

[Artichokeleaves]

Enjoy your echo chamber, because that’s all you have. I’m sorry that you’re fighting a losing battle.

Ah Schroedinger's Female Rights.

So non existent and unimportant and long gone that it's only a few silly females still talking about them, while at the same important and threatening enough to spend a lot of time seeking out females and commit to telling them, a whole lot, every day, that they're wasting their time and no one can hear them.

It's quite sweet really.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

It's quite sweet really.

The mutual back patting for introducing "balance" (but not answering the difficult questions except with links to blogs) was too.

[LK1972]

I'd invite the lurkers to reflect on the level of analysis and arguments offered on this board in response to all and any article whether legal, philosophical or any other, and decide for themselves on whether this is an echo chamber or not.

I believed it was, till i actually read it

[LK1972]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's quite sweet really.

The mutual back patting for introducing "balance" (but not answering the difficult questions except with links to blogs) was too.

Their female socialization instincts are strong, if only directed at the men and the few female fellow travelers

[BellaAmorosa]

@MsFogi
You basically called the TRA bluff on pronouns in an elegant way! 😂💐
May I add that you sound like a great boss - respectful of your co-workers/team and their time.

[TheBiologyStupid]

@BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

Oh man, that Aoen article

3100 words on continental and analytic philosophy, all to try to avoid saying that a woman is an adult human female. What do you think is the author’s term for such a class of people if not ‘woman’?

and the conclusion being essentially ‘it doesn’t matter because everyone should try to help all marginalised people’

totally unrealistic, written by someone with no interest in achieving anything. The way you make stuff happen is by having tightly defined goals

Absolutely! As Helen Joyce pointed out recently, many "progressive" organisations have been engaging in unproductive infighting and navel-gazing rather than actually attempting to actually achieve the aims of the bodies that they work or volunteer for: www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-13/

[Tryingtokeepgoing]

@Conflictedunicorn

Thay are a bit boring now. It’s almost like they are admitting they have no sane argument for their ideology. I have discovered TRA kryptonite though. It’s questions. Any questions pointing out flaws in their logic make them shrivel up and slink away.

Is that really what’s happened in this thread and my posts, or is that what you want to believe? It really quite easy to explain, to those who have an open mind. Some people, transgender or otherwise, would rather be know by pronouns different to to those that other refer to them by, for whatever reason. It doesn’t matter to me what they want to be called, it’s their life and it it costs me nothing, and makes no difference to me. So it’s a small action that doesn’t impact me at all and makes someone else’s life better. Why would I not be happy with that?

It’s clear that the colleague originally mentioned, Paul, wants to show that he supports those who do feel that they’d like their pronouns to be known. I’m not sure why the OP thought it was appropriate to mock him for it during a meeting…. Well, I am…she did it because she thought it was a clever way of undermining him and mocking those who do want their pronouns to be known. Spectacularly missing the point that Paul almost certainly knows that everyone knows his pronouns. Paul is a well known name all over the world. But that he also wants to show to support to those who do want their pronouns to be known for whatever reason. Which comes back to my viewpoint that it makes no difference to me, or indeed Paul, but if we can do something with little effort, and zero cost or impact to make someone else’s life better why wouldn’t we?

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Is that really what’s happened in this thread

Yes, it is. Do feel free to have a stab at answering the questions people have put, but I don't think it was you pp had in mind.

[NewPotatoSalad]

People, all people, are either female sex or male sex, and perceived accurately by others. Even by babies, toddlers, dogs, cats, horses, cattle, sheep, etc. Ad on Sooom meeting, Teams meetings, etc.

Why the bludgeoning lying and "No Debate"?

[TastefulRainbowUnicorn]

But that he also wants to show to support to those who do want their pronouns to be known for whatever reason.

i don’t understand why everyone is so unappreciative of OP showing support to people who show support to those who do want their pronouns to be known for whatever reason.

[LK1972]

@Tryingtokeepgoing I think your position is that pronouns in emails 'can do something with little effort, and zero cost or impact to make someone else’s life better', and all those women who disagree are making fuss about nothing? Is that correct?

[GoodThinkingMax]

I had to call Barry recently. I was so grateful of the he/him on his email signature, I’d have assumed he was a woman otherwise.

I'm at an academic research retreat. I was so pleased that Andrew and James both indicated their pronouns when we did the round he table introductions. I might have made lazy assumptions about their gender identities, based on their beards and their height. I'm not so sure about any of my other fellow attendees - I think they're women, but none of the women specified their pronouns, so how can I be sure ?

[Emotionalsupportviper]

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn

But that he also wants to show to support to those who do want their pronouns to be known for whatever reason.

i don’t understand why everyone is so unappreciative of OP showing support to people who show support to those who do want their pronouns to be known for whatever reason.

Absolutely agree . . . probably . . . 😄

Every time this ideology is shown up for the idiocy it is, it is a step forwards.

I'm not so sure about any of my other fellow attendees - I think they're women, but none of the women specified their pronouns, so how can I be sure

What a terrible position to put you in @GoodThinkingMax - have they no consideration for your dilemma? You won't be able to speak to, or about those possibly-women-possibly-not until you find out somehow. But how can you ask? How embarrassing for them would that be.

You could literally kill someone.

(Has anyone read "The End of the World is Flat" by Simon edge? In this satyrical novel he shows just how this whole sorry type of situation can come about, and how dangerous it can be)

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

@Tryingtokeepgoing

Is that really what’s happened in this thread and my posts, or is that what you want to believe? It really quite easy to explain, to those who have an open mind. Some people, transgender or otherwise, would rather be know by pronouns different to to those that other refer to them by, for whatever reason. It doesn’t matter to me what they want to be called, it’s their life and it it costs me nothing, and makes no difference to me. So it’s a small action that doesn’t impact me at all and makes someone else’s life better. Why would I not be happy with that?

It’s clear that the colleague originally mentioned, Paul, wants to show that he supports those who do feel that they’d like their pronouns to be known. I’m not sure why the OP thought it was appropriate to mock him for it during a meeting…. Well, I am…she did it because she thought it was a clever way of undermining him and mocking those who do want their pronouns to be known. Spectacularly missing the point that Paul almost certainly knows that everyone knows his pronouns. Paul is a well known name all over the world. But that he also wants to show to support to those who do want their pronouns to be known for whatever reason. Which comes back to my viewpoint that it makes no difference to me, or indeed Paul, but if we can do something with little effort, and zero cost or impact to make someone else’s life better why wouldn’t we?

There are a few things I wanted to pick up in this.

Firstly, pronoun announcements are built on the GI ideoogy. This ideology might not have cost you anything but it sure as heck has cost a lot of women a great deal. Does it only worry you if it has a personal impact or can you have empathy for vulnerable women?

Secondly, Paul has already announced his pronouns. How is announcing them mocking him?

Thirdly, surely the whole point of GI is that you know no-one's identity or pronouns unless they tell you these things? So people do NOT know Paul's pronouns. I would HATE for people to assume I identify as a woman with all the sexist paraphernalia which goes with that just because I've not announced that like most people I am agender and believe that a person does not need to be constrained by socially constructed gender boxes. It is anti-GI to assume that you know his pronouns because his name is Paul.

[TheKeatingFive]

It doesn’t matter to me what they want to be called, it’s their life and it it costs me nothing, and makes no difference to me

I used to think this.

I'm changing my position however.

Pronouns corroborate the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of it all. They start the process of muddying the water between sex and gender. And as the previous poster outlines, that then can have devastating outcomes for vulnerable women. You may be too privileged to notice or care, but that's the truth.

If someone doesn't want to use their sex pronouns, I disagree they have a right to use the opposite sexes pronouns. In this case, neutral pronouns strike me as a better compromise for all. Or not using pronouns at all, names only.

[GoodJanetBadJanet]

It doesn’t matter to me what they want to be called, it’s their life and it it costs me nothing, and makes no difference to me
Exactly, I think the same.
Makes no difference to me whether to use them or not, so I choose to use them.

[GoodJanetBadJanet]

Or not using pronouns at all, names only.
How would that even work though?!
Sarah says Sarah will be late in tomorrow so Sarah might be starting Sarah's work a little bit later tomorrow 😕
You need pronouns (oops, see, one just slipped in there saying you!)
That's what would be head confusing, not just using pronouns in the first place!

[hatedbythedailymail22]

@GoodJanetBadJanet

It doesn’t matter to me what they want to be called, it’s their life and it it costs me nothing, and makes no difference to me
Exactly, I think the same.
Makes no difference to me whether to use them or not, so I choose to use them.

But it does make a difference to you, because it makes a difference to all women. You just have copped it yet.

[hatedbythedailymail22]

@GoodJanetBadJanet

It doesn’t matter to me what they want to be called, it’s their life and it it costs me nothing, and makes no difference to me
Exactly, I think the same.
Makes no difference to me whether to use them or not, so I choose to use them.

But it does make a difference to you, because it makes a difference to all women. You just have copped it yet.

[TheKeatingFive]

Sarah says Sarah will be late in tomorrow so Sarah might be starting Sarah's work a little bit later tomorrow

Sarah will be delayed tomorrow so may be starting work a bit later.

Doesn't sound too problematic to me.