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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it now the norm for the BBC to lie?

86 replies

Twindow · 17/07/2022 13:39

Why did the BBC interview a transwoman boxer who had boasted about cracking a woman's skull in the ring, on the basis that the woman was a "terf". And why did they (very very probably) lie about not knowing about it? Is this the norm now, because "trans rights" come before public duty and integrity?
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/16/bbc-apologises-interviewing-transgender-athlete-who-boasted/

OP posts:
darcyesque · 18/07/2022 08:55

Run and staffed largely by transactivists/ppl who believe TWAW is probably more accurate

darcyesque · 18/07/2022 08:59

Would be great to see a media leaders debate with Paul Brand (ITN) Jess Brammar (BBC) Louisa Compton (Channel 4) all having to answer if they believe - or even think it's possible - that males can be women. It would explain a lot to a lot of people

RoyalCorgi · 18/07/2022 10:04

My hunch is that Justin Webb didn't know, but his researchers/producers did. Presenters rely very heavily on their teams to do the work beforehand, and obviously if a researcher knew who Fallon Fox was, they knew about Fox's history.

The BBC is full of backroom staff who are very pro-trans/anti-women. This is presumably why on the PM programme they keep wheeling out a well-known trans activist academic to opine on women's sport.

Pluvia · 18/07/2022 10:24

Justin Webb has been bravely and openly criticising gender ideology on Today for the last couple of years. He used to be the BBC US correspondent and I think he was aware of how toxic it was before he came back to London. I'm inclined to believe him if he says he had no idea, because I think otherwise he would have called FF out on his words.

The presenters of Today have to rely on researchers and behind-the-scenes journalists and I imagine that a few researchers are TRAs (as urged to be by the trainers the BBC has employed). Probably the researcher involved phoned around trying to find any transwoman in sport and Fallon Fox was the only one available, possibly at short notice, and due diligence wasn't carried out.

As I said, Justin Webb has been one of the good guys and I don't think accusing him of lying is helpful.

Pluvia · 18/07/2022 10:27

Bovrilly · 18/07/2022 04:56

I just can't forget that BBC R4 was the station that silenced Jenni Murray.

Eh? How do you figure that out?

She was disciplined after speaking out against gender ideology and not allowed to cover the topic again. She left in protest and has since written about it. Where have you been the last few years?

Bovrilly · 18/07/2022 11:32

She was disciplined after speaking out against gender ideology and not allowed to cover the topic again. She left in protest and has since written about it. Where have you been the last few years?

Ah I just thought it was odd to describe someone who hosted a daily live show on Radio 4 for 30+ years and then chose to leave to become a Daily Mail columnist three years after she wrote the offending article (a very slow reaction if resigning in protest) as having been silenced.

ihavenocats · 18/07/2022 12:13

Yes, the state owned media lie to their people.. Did you think that was just for "other" countries?

they even have us pay for it. It's free in North Korea.

Rightsraptor · 18/07/2022 12:20

I'm quite prepared to believe Justin Webb didn't know about FF but the show's researchers would have done. Same with Jeremy Vine, though the latter's faux naivety grates. I'd bet there was a massive showdown in the production office after the FF programme. But the question remains - what are the BBC going to do about this issue?

Fuck all, it would seem.

darcyesque · 18/07/2022 12:48

"The BBC is full of backroom staff who are very pro-trans/anti-women."

Extremely accurate

nauticant · 18/07/2022 12:50

I don't believe what Justin Webb would have kept quiet about this had he known.

I'm with Pluvia, Webb was very senior in BBC news in the US for nearly a decade until he returned in 2009 to front the Today programme, I think while in the US he was exposed to identity politics and didn't like what he saw, and since he's returned he's seen its rise in the UK which is now why he's a leading BBC voice against the excesses of identity politics, of whatever form, including the gender identity ideology.

In looking around for this post, I had a look at Webb's Wikipedia entry and found this strange account:

In 2022, the BBC said Webb was not sufficiently accurate when he described the philosophy professor Kathleen Stock – who resigned following protests over her views on gender identity and transgender rights – as being "falsely" accused of transphobia. However, said that it was accurate to describe her as a subject of abuse by students.[17]

ChateauMargaux · 18/07/2022 13:33

i do not believe that anyone who has any knowledge of women's rights and the trans debate, does not know who Fallon Fox is. And if this is really true that Justin Webb did not know - then he really ought to be more widely read and look at the sources of information he uses.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 18/07/2022 14:49

And if this is really true that Justin Webb did not know - then he really ought to be more widely read and look at the sources of information he uses.

You should read the thread before posting!

It’s not Justin Webb’s job to know. He can’t possibly be an expert on every topic he covers. It’s the job of behind the scenes researchers to brief him properly. The anonymous BBC blobs are on the opposite side of the argument than Webb is and he should not be blamed for their fuckups.

ChateauMargaux · 18/07/2022 15:12

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn ... I did read the thread and I totally disagree. Justin Webb is a journalist presenting the nations most well known current affairs programme. It is his job to be up to date on current affairs. Yes, he has researchers, but as I said... I do not believe the apology is genuine and I believe he should take responsibility for what goes out on air when he is presenting.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 18/07/2022 15:45

It is his job to be up to date on current affairs.

You have a very high opinion of Fallon Fox's prominence and relevance! I'm sure xey'd be flattered. Fox is an absolute nobody unless you're an MMA fan or Joe Rogan fan (to whom xey's an object of contempt) or you're neck deep in the GC debate (ditto.) It's not remotely reasonable to expect a presenter on a current affairs programme to know who Fox is. The people whose actual job it is to research their guests are a different matter.

ChateauMargaux · 18/07/2022 17:33

In your opinion.. which I do not share. Fox fallon is in the top 5 examples of why transwomen should not compete in female sports.

TheWeeDonkey · 18/07/2022 17:52

JacquelinePot · 17/07/2022 15:46

Odd because I thought breaking a woman's skull was the reason anyone even knows who Fallon Fox is

Just like everyone else knew about Jimmy Saville and Tim Westwood.

Incompetent or unethical? They're one or the other.

Bovrilly · 18/07/2022 18:37

"The BBC is full of backroom staff who are very pro-trans/anti-women."

What does this mean - what roles do you class as backroom staff? The BBC is a big organisation, are you talking about every department? What evidence do you have that for example people working for N Ireland Sport or Radio Gloucester or Newsgathering or Factual Ent or Children's or Pobol y Cwm or Finance or BBC Introducing are anti-women?

nauticant · 18/07/2022 18:56

If the BBC follows the pattern of other large organisations, you'll find a preponderance of trans people in IT, and particularly in Internet support functions.

In terms of demographics, a recent survey found that 2% of the staff at the BBC are trans compared to around 0.3% of the general population.

Bovrilly · 18/07/2022 19:06

If the BBC follows the pattern of other large organisations, you'll find a preponderance of trans people in IT, and particularly in Internet support functions.

Ok but the BBC has a very small number of in-house IT staff, Atos is its technology services provider at the moment.

In terms of demographics, a recent survey found that 2% of the staff at the BBC are trans compared to around 0.3% of the general population.

This is interesting but 2% trans population is not quite the same as being "full of backroom staff" and neither does it mean that anyone is anti-women. It would be really interesting to have some evidence of that and a bit more info about who the backroom staff actually are, what does that term mean in this context, how we can tell that they're anti-women etc etc.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/07/2022 19:29

I certainly believe the BBC employs a lot of liars. Consider all the things you have learnt over any random 20 year period during your lifetime, from school subjects, general knowledge, celebrity gossip, workplace processes and procedures including the dodgy vending machine on floor 2, political goings-on, and funny film quotes. It's a long time and you learn a lot.

Savile hosted Jim'll Fix It for 19 years. How is it conceivable that no-one in BBC senior management heard about Savile's behaviour in that length of time?

Bovrilly · 18/07/2022 20:07

I'm sorry I don't follow the connection between learning a lot of stuff in 20 years and the BBC employing a lot of liars. I also don't get the link between Savile and current BBC staff, given that Jim'll Fix It ended almost 30 years ago.

How is it conceivable that no-one in BBC senior management heard about Savile's behaviour in that length of time?

The good news is that there was an independent report and it's pretty comprehensive if you want to know how this happened.

http://downloads.bbci.co.uk/bbctrust/assets/files/pdf/ourwork/dameejanetsmithhreview/conclusions_summaries.pdf

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/07/2022 20:20

This may help you understand my point. From someone who worked at the BBC and submitted evidence to that enquiry you reference. He doesn't believe that no-one in senior management knew, and nor do I. People in senior management aren't born there, and they're not kept in rarefied gossip-free boxes from birth to insulate them from learning anything unpleasant.

extract
Elland Road, Leeds, 1987
Living in London, I go north to Leeds United games whenever possible. This is a time, two years before the Hillsborough disaster, when overcrowding or scary penning-in on the terraces are common.During a crowd surge at Elland Road, someone shouts: “Don’t die because you’ll get taken to hospital and be fucked by Jimmy Savile in the morgue.” (He volunteered as a hospital porter, including morgue duties, at Leeds General Infirmary from 1960.) This shows that horrendous stories about the broadcaster – not just paedophilia, but necrophilia – were in the public domain, at least in Yorkshire, for decades before his exposure.Twenty-five years later, I tell this to a retired high court judge posthumously investigating Savile.(continues)

A London West End restaurant, late 1990s

As a BBC presenter, I am intermittently invited to so-called “talent lunches” with one senior manager or another. At one such meal, I question why Jim’ll Fix It ended, in July 1994, after 19 years and two months, rather than let Savile depart after two full decades, a neater break point. “Yes, well,” says the BBC manager, “child protection laws are stricter now than they used to be.”

A cafe near BBC Broadcasting House, London, early 2006

A meeting of production staff to discuss possible future guests for Mark Lawson Talks To … on BBC Four. Flicking through birthdays, someone notices that Savile will be 80 in October. After swapping rumours about whether he only molests young women or dead bodies as well, we rule him out.

None of those present reach higher management positions at the BBC, so this conversation does not contradict a position the BBC will take in future years: that no one at the top at any point had ever even heard rumours about Savile. Yet, if in my experience of more than 20 years, so many junior BBC staff knew the stories, it must mean that only those who didn’t were ever promoted to senior roles. What are the odds?

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/apr/01/the-day-i-thwarted-jimmy-savile-mark-lawson-on-trying-to-stop-britains-worst-sex-offender

Bovrilly · 18/07/2022 20:33

I recommend reading the whole Janet Smith report as there is a lot of detail in there about who knew what and who ought to have known. But in any case I don't see the relevance of Savile when talking about whether current BBC staff are liars / trans / anti-women.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/07/2022 20:41

Do you not.

Next part of the article which is why Mark Lawson got called to give evidence. I recommend reading that in detail. Now, let us be clear. I respect Dame Janet Smith very much. But she can only work with the evidence that she was given, and people are often disinclined to incriminate themselves.

extract

BBC Television Centre, London, 26 July 2006

Front Row has been offered “behind the scenes access” to the final recording of Top of the Pops, which is ending after 42 years. I go with a producer who can now only legally be identified as C23, her code in Janet Smith’s 2016 report into Jimmy Savile and the BBC.

The press officer has sent her a list of potential interviews and we choose Tony Blackburn and Reggie Yates to represent both ends of the chronology. We are offered Savile, who had fronted the opening show and is co-hosting the closing one, but decline for the reason that, not being senior BBC management, we have heard all the stories. I also want to keep my colleague from an encounter with a man whose greetings to women are known to involve laboriously kissing or licking the length of their arm (both Thatcher and Princess Diana reportedly suffered this).

We have happily talked to Blackburn and Yates and are packing up to go when Savile splits the double doors of the studio and lopes out, characteristically track-suited, top unzipped to show medallions nesting in chest hair. He is 79. “Now then, now then, now then,” he exclaims. “What’s all this about Radio 4?”

I struggle to write the next paragraph but Smith, in her section 5: 262, records what happened with the pellucid neutrality of legal prose:

He said “hello” to everyone except C23. Then he stood beside her, grabbed her round the waist with his right hand, put his legs round her left thigh (so that her leg was between his two legs) and rubbed his crotch up and down. So far as C23 can remember, he did not say anything. She felt that he was giving a performance. Fortunately Mr Lawson saw what was happening, came over and distracted Savile, then positioned himself between Savile and C23. The interview took place.

There is one detail Smith omits for the proper reason that it is experienced by a witness not a victim. When I block Savile, he is furious, thwarted. His strength is extraordinary for a man four months away from 80 but I have enough height and heft to hold him off, though not without briefly feeling his erection against my leg. (Many have suggested that his favoured baggy leisure wear was doubly calculated for easy removal and to advertise his arousal to his prey without doubt.) Let me be clear that this experience is nothing at all compared to the impacts on his victims, but it is a weird memory to have and gives me some tiny insight into the suffering he inflicted.

In later years, I will agonise over whether I should have stopped the interview happening. But Savile, with a tactical cunning likely developed through his depravities, created a situation in which we would appear to be reneging on an interview that had never been agreed. And at the time, though I know I have definitely seen something happen, it is impossible to be sure exactly what until discussing it on the tube back to Broadcasting House. As seems to be regrettably often the case in such situations, my colleague does not want the incident reported. She is doubtful of the BBC backing us against Savile (as, privately, am I) and asks me not to say anything. But what has happened is confirmation of 30 years of rumours, and puts me in the clear position of having not just heard something but now seen it. So when we get back, I inform my line manager and subsequently gain the impression that the information has been spread more widely.

When this incident becomes public a decade later, the BBC line is that no action was taken because I failed to make a “formal” complaint. I have no recollection of ever being offered a choice of whistles to blow. My memory is that the BBC told me the matter could only be taken seriously if the complaint came from the victim. I will also later be informed that I am mistaken about the number of BBC managers among whom news of the 2006 assault was shared.
[bold mine]

Bovrilly · 18/07/2022 20:56

I still can't see how this = the BBC employs a lot of liars. Who are they all? You might just as well criticise the whole of the current BBC for the situation in Arts when Mark Lawson was there presenting Front Row.

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