Radio 4 PM - “culture wars”

[MathSage]

Evan Davies briefly mentioned Kemi Badenoch before getting onto whether Penny Mordaunt has changed tack:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0019461

Davies interviewed firstly Luke Tryl from More in Common which did a recent survey claiming that voters weren’t interested in the trans issue. Tryl was formerly Head of Education for Stonewall.

Secondly Sue Pascoe who is introduced as “a woman with a trans history” and is Area Chairman of North and East Yorkshire Conservative Women’s Organisation ( conservativewomen.uk/articles/about-sue/ ). The bio states that Pascoe was AMAB, seemingly with a variation of sexual development which was dealt with surgically to produce male functionality. Pascoe then married a woman and they had two children. Pascoe was unhappy about the surgery and living outwardly as a male from a young age and eventually transitioned once the children were grown up.

So no balance at all as no one with a gender critical viewpoint was asked for their point of view. Who is it supposed to be a culture war between, BBC?

Also interesting to see the phrase “woman with a trans history” which both emphasises the word woman and throws a screen over what the person is if you don’t know what that trans history is.

I was wondering if the “DSD” referred to in the piece requiring surgery for functionality was undescended testes. If so it seems a bit of a stretch on the term DSD.

Something doesn’t sound right

Absolutely zero mention of a dsd/ VSD in the mail article from 2015. Pascoe was "diagnosed with gender dysphoria" and the whole thing reads like the archetypal stunning and brave™ story that was around back then.

More recently the media narratives have changed because women saw through them.

I have also wondered something along those lines.

Yes, now everyone has shown ‘born in the wrong body’ for the shitshow it is, they’re now pulling out the ‘I have a DSD’ saga. As the TRA and stonewall call PCOS a DSD in their attempts to prove TW can be women, I’d say yes, probably referring to undescended testes as a DSD. Considering he managed to father 2 children, I’d say that was the extent of it. Horrendously insulting to those with DSD, but who cares about that when they can spin a tale to prove their ‘womanhood’

I was wondering about hypospadias or phimosis.

Regardless, it’s very clear that Pascoe is biologically male and the father of children, and transitioned to present as a woman
towards the end of Pascoe’s professional career. It’s the classic presentation. I don’t quite see where a dsd comes it.

"Diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria/ have a DSD" is camouflaging the whole thing as 'reasonable medical need.'

As opposed to the other type of needs.

"Nothing to see here" say 3 biological males.

@CuntAmongstThePigeons hePigeons · Today 04:55
Watch out world indeed.

I was actually trying to find where the DSD community/org (can't remember now) had the statement about wanting to be kept out of the trans debate. Was beginning to think I'd imagined it. Does anyone have a link?

I’ll look later, but you could try DSD Families U.K. (the name is something like that)FAQs
Stonewall glossary for intersex mentions
they no longer include it.

Justasec321 · Today 05:41
”RunSeaSurf · 13/07/2022 23:04
Evan does not appear to be impartial on this subject whenever it comes up”

Y’a think??

he is so bloody partial he cannot walk straight

He really annoys me with his “let’s be ultra reasonable but let me be so one sided as to have only one side but hey - reasonable tone”.

The worst type of gaslighting - “reasonable, engaged, smart, on one side but let’s not pretend.., “

You’ve described him perfectly. I now half switch off when I hear him now.

There was also a few weeks ago a shockingly biased and misrepresentative Channel 4 News report on T not being included in the Ban Conversion Therapy Bill.

It was so manipulative, skewed and lacking in facts that I don’t know how a professional journalist could have quite managed it.

Exactly.

We've had so much media coverage about TRA from pro trans view, but when it comes to how it destroys women's rights and opportunities, its suddenly not very interesting, not popular with the public, or we have more pressing things to discuss.

@Justasec321

re: DSD

I am copying and pasting my post from a thread about a letter from Baroness Nicholson objecting to ‘Intersex’ flags having been put up in the street without planning permission. and objecting to the misuse of DSD to represent trans people.

You could look up that thread but it was heavily interfered with by people who missed the point of her objection.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/07/2022 14:14

antifascist hierarche1

I had written,:

Going back to what Baroness Nicholson’s letter was about.

It was about including 100 Progress Flags among Pride flags.

Progress flags are supposed to represent people with DSDs/VSDs often called Intersex.

Including people with these conditions by means of a Progress flag was ‘hostile’ to people with DSDs. , because people with DSD have asked that their conditions not be used as examples of trans gender states - which they are not.

From DSD families
Guide

This is not a guide about LGBT+ issues, as Differences of Sex Development/Intersex Variations are not a form of sexuality or gender identity; they are about physical differences in a person’s reproductive development and sometimes genital development.

Q. Are DSD and transgender the same thing?

No, they aren't. DSD refers to a physical situation that begins before birth in which the reproductive/genital system does not develop as expected for a typical boy or girl.

www.dsdfamilies.org › faq
FAQ - DSD Families

Stonewall
Stonewall …………………………..does not, after discussions with members of the intersex community, include intersex issues as part of its current remit at this stage

I seem to remember Pascoe saying that Pascoe believes the source of Pascoe’s gender dysphoria was having been exposed to excess oestrogen whilst in the womb, i.e. there is a biological/ medical phenomenon that underlies Pascoe really being a woman. Apparently this now counts as a DSD.

But wouldn’t that apply to everyone? Surely everyone is exposed to eostrogen whilst in the womb?

One of the theories about severe sex dysphoria that was quite common was that there had been an unusual exposure to opposite sex hormones in the womb. I remember reading about it in a psychology textbook in the early 90s so it was pretty mainstream among medical professionals.

It hasn't been shown to be the case and seems to have fallen out of favour with people actually involved in that kind of research, but it's what a lot of people who think that being trans is a medical issue still believe - they do think it's a kind of intersex disorder.

it's what a lot of people who think that being trans is a medical issue still believe - they do think it's a kind of intersex disorder.

It's the main reason why so many people who don't know a huge amount about it and are left leaning are vehemently defensive of "trans rights" (what ever extra special thing that is v human rights)

I remember the first time I engaged an intelligent friend in a conversation about it, the first thing she mentioned was "hermaphroditism."

Heads up, Evan Davis talking about this now on the bottom line - going woke or broke.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/b006sz6t

Business going woke or broke Radio 4 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4592260-business-going-woke-or-broke-radio-4

it's what a lot of people who think that being trans is a medical issue still believe - they do think it's a kind of intersex disorder.

I'm reading about this in a long paper written by Alice Dreger:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170124/

It's referred to as:

a neurological intersex—a kind of inborn feminized brain in a masculine body, so that from an early age they naturally exhibit feminine interests and behaviors

and at least at some time was favoured by Blanchard as explanation for some indviduals being transgender.

The paper is fascinating dealing as it does with events from a couple of decades ago. I find that looking past the insane noisiness of gender identity ideology of the past decade, one can get a much clearer picture of what, fundamentally, it's about.

a neurological intersex—a kind of inborn feminized brain in a masculine body, so that from an early age they naturally exhibit feminine interests and behaviors

Isn't that just sexism?

Yes, but it's the new sexism. It's now wrapped in a pink and blue flag and marketed as 'progressive'.

But it's really just the same old regressive sexism.

Yes this - I’m not aware of any DSD where “male functionality” can be bestowed by surgery, despite the patient being “actually” a woman.

Men with DSDs can have variations in sex development which render them infertile, or they can have various genital formations like hyperspadias that can be corrected through surgery, but I don’t think a genetic woman with a DSD can be given functioning male genitalia and sperm to father children. Unless anyone else knows differently. Something doesn’t add up in that story.

Quite a lot of the TRAs on youth social media sites like Tumblr still believe this (often at the same time as saying being trans isn’t a medical condition) — there’s a lot of claiming that “hormone washes in the womb” cause transness.

Than you I intend to read that later but I haven’t had time to read it yet, and not being a scientist would not be good at judging what trial cohorts and methods etc were used.

I thought though that it can be fairly common for children to show a particular interest in a way of looking, or pastimes, associated with the opposite sex; and that among those, most grow up to be heterosexual and accepting of their sex, while a proportion grow up to be gay.

What I wonder did the research do to be sure the neurological signs were there in early childhood, rather than were the result of later treatments and behaviour?

And, how could they be sure the neurological signs, if they had been there in early childhood, were not signs for being gay rather than transgender ( with the transgender identity possibly having been later adopted because of suppressing being gay); or signs of some early trauma?

According to Gina Rippon, Emeritus professor of Neuroimaging, there is no such thing as a “female brain”:

www.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/05/the-gendered-brain-gina-rippon-review