CoE says ‘no official definition of a woman’

[achillestoes]

Tonight The Telegraph reports this as the official stance of the Church of England.

Comments from Dr Robert Innes, the Bishop in Europe:

There is no official definition, which reflects the fact that until fairly recently definitions of this kind were thought to be self-evident, as reflected in the marriage liturgy. The LLF project however has begun to explore the marriage complexities associated with gender identity and points to the need for additional care and thought to be given in understanding our commonalities and differences as people made in the image of God.

If anyone knows what that means...

In fairness adult human female isn't that informative. You can still ask, what's the definition of female?

I think the church taking a stance on this issue is daft anyway. Whether there is a definition is not a religious doctrine !

No problem with defining men:

1 Kings 14:10
King James Version
10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

In fairness adult human female isn't that informative. You can still ask, what's the definition of female?

And again, you can easily find the clear biological definition.

of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to bear young or produce eggs

'Female' and 'male' are the two , and only two, sexes which apply in all organisms which reproduce sexually.

Everyone who's not being wilfully idiotic knows this. Everyone knows their mother was female and their father was a male.

Religions the whole world over, all knew, all down the centuries, who the women were. Including the CofE, which is relatively new (Henry XIII, 1534).

No surprise that they choose to dissemble and still prioritise men over women, when men say they are women. CofE still gives men-who-say-they-are-women the respect that is due to men, and disregard actual women.

So now not only am I politically homeless, my fucking church has decided they suddenly can’t define who a woman is. So all the years they refused to let women become priests, how did they know who to refuse? They certainly had no problem knowing what a woman is then. It’s no wonder the CofE is becoming obsolete and not fit fit purpose

Exactly.

Where do they think new humans come from?

If it really wasn't possible to immediately tell male from female 100% of the time no matter what they're wearing or what body modifications they've made (because it's hardwired by evolution as an adaptive trait, especially for the female of the species), then the way misogynistic organisations like the church treat the different types of 'women' (XX or XY) would tell you straight away who's male.

You couldn't make it up.

Does that mean they’ll now marry two men or two women if one of them identifies as the opposite sex?

Yes, yes it does.

I’m a Christian and am horrified at this and v upset actually.

Don't worry, it's just the CofE bishops again. Nothing to do with Christianity.

Given that the Cof E has been haemorrhaging the faithful and therefore haemorrhaging funds, I have to wonder whether pro-trans foundations funded by billionaires like Soros have made substantial donations or promises of ongoing financial support if the Church gave a nod to transgenderism.

I think this is classic! It took a few hundreds of years for the CofE to accept women as priests and bishops.
And it takes five minutes for CofE to fully accept men as women.

Bulldozing away everything women tried to do for women's equality. Substitute a man with "female gender" instead.

CofE? Fuck women's equality and get back in your traditional box. Madonna or whore, but not a leader, not an educator.

As I read this it's a statement that says very little.

The first part just means that the CoE has never had an official definition of man or woman because no one ever thought it was necessary. So the marriage liturgy for example uses the words but it doesn't take any trouble to explain what they mean, it assumes everyone knows.

The second part is waffle, it's basically saying in looking into the marriage issue they are aware that this is a contentious issue so they will be sensitive. It means very little.

I don't expect any kind of serious intellectual argument out of the CoE these days though, most vicars aren't going to be against anything but bottled water, they are desperate to feel socially with it and as an institution they don't seem capable of really robust arguments any more.

If Eve was made of Adam with the purpose of being able to reproduce then how can this be argued?

I've listened to some ridiculous religious arguments in my time but they all pale into insignificance against this one which doesn't even follow the religion's own doctrine.

Married Anglican women need to start identifying as male asap. Because that would make all their marriages gay marriage. Or is sex suddenly recognised then and they'd be told they're not men?

Engaged Anglican women need to identify as men and speak to their minister about the "same-sex" marriage s/he's going to conduct.

And they need to ask how the church knows that Eve was a woman and Adam was a man because actually, we've never been told that they felt like a man and a woman. And if God could get it wrong now, then how do we know that He didn't make a mistake with his prototypes?

@runningfromreality I feel very much like you. I was baptised as an adult into the C of E and I feel hoodwinked.

What do you mean by CofE Bishops being nothing to do with Christianity? Is it some kind of joke I'm missing?

Like some PPs I'm a life long (CofE) Christian. I'm sad that this is the stance they are taking. Although I knew my own Vicar believes "TWAW" because they have a young adult trans relative.

Although I did see an interesting video a while ago. A young Christian transman was saying how he couldn't reconcile his trans identity with the "God doesn't make mistakes" teaching. And then someone (a pastor I think) said God hadn't made a mistake by putting him 'in the wrong body' but that God made him to be trans and that was who he always was.
Now I'm not saying I agree with the theory, but it was interesting.

Fabulous. I didn't want to go to church anyway. I now won't be able to put 'CofE' in the 'religion' section of questionnaires, though.

Transwomen are men. Born men, die men. They way they 'do' womaning is a man's way.

So they don't know what a woman is whilst simultaneously refusing to marry 2 of them?

I would also , if we are meant to believe woman is a gender, love a definition of what a woman gender is.

Because there has to be one that isn't a circular definition or made up of stereotypes right?

I mean people wouldn't make themselves look ridiculous over a word that has no clear definition and can not be explained right?

Fab comment. Yes, they did.

Saw this headline.

Just for fun (?) - I thought I would write the following sentence down:

'There is no official definition of a man'.

It reads completely differently doesn't it?

You can already hear the male voices shouting 'oh yes there IS'...

‘And then someone (a pastor I think) said God hadn't made a mistake by putting him 'in the wrong body' but that God made him to be trans and that was who he always was. Now I'm not saying I agree with the theory, but it was interesting.’

Which is fine. Nobody is arguing against their right to believe this. It doesn’t make that person a man. It makes them someone who is happier identifying as a man.

until fairly recently definitions of this kind were thought to be self-evident,

In other words, all of us know which people are women, but we can be persuaded it's complicated if it benefits men in some way.

Surely the original CofE definition of women ties directly back to sex : "one who is supposed to be giving the king sons"

You could say women are methods of transport when it comes to surrogacy.

Perhaps 'method of foetus transport' should be added to 'cervix-haver', 'womb-haver', 'menstruater', and all the other reductive terms.

Brilliant, could I do this?

Catholicism has made a biological definition of male and female. Reason to convert? It's like a vegetarian going vegan surely? A bit more hardcore.

Also, they know what a man is when it comes to gay marriage, which is not allowed still.

Talk about gay conversion therapy, fully endorsed by the CoE.

Please share any literature, this is all utter w#&k. Thinking about how this may trickle down to faith schools and Sunday schools / Church youth groups.

I am heartbroken by this. The CofE is returning to institutional misogyny.

It's especially difficult to hear from a Bishop of Europe. Diocese of Europe churches tend to be very diverse. Most congregations have members from parts of the world where gender woo isn't a thing. Including refugees and highly vulnerable migrant women with real world problems. Unintentionally sowing confusion and division in return for woke points is unhelpful.

Innes spoke out young refugee women being tricked and trafficked from the Ukrainian border. So he definitely knows what a woman is.

Catholicism has made a biological definition of male and female. Reason to convert?

My DC's RC school has facilitated the transing of several young women. I'll stay and fight in the C of E - for now.

No they still seem to be able to tell perfectly well who is a woman for the purpose of refusing to marry two women.