If Starmer stated what a woman is...

[Lykia]

Would you vote for him? If he categorically stated a woman is a woman/born with female sexual organs ( ie biological woman) or whatever the correct definition is.

Surely he must know that if he said this then a lot more women would vote for him.

Moreover there are more women out there than trans women so why doesn't he just come out and say this? Is this his hill to die on?

He's an intelligent man surely the next election would be much easier to win if he just came out and said what a woman is.

No I think the damage is done

His inability to be straight has annoyed me too much

Yes.

i want to vote Labour but won’t because of this issue.

i therefore now vote Tory as otherwise I’m effectively disenfranchised by men and these beliefs.

Come on, Keir!

No - he has spouted so much nonsense about this - how can we believe a word he says?

This 100%

I would disagree with your statement that most women agree with your definition of what a woman is.

Moreover there are more women out there than trans women so why doesn't he just come out and say this?

Women are split on the issue though away from the MN echo chamber. If they weren't then i'm sure he would as politicians need votes.

Starmer backed the 10 pledges in order to win the leadership election and then ignored them when he got in. He's not trustworthy.

No. The problem within the Labour party is much more than this. It extends all the way down to councillor level.
Its also the rampant authoritarianism.
Their adoption of neoliberal identity politics that go against socialism.
Their willingness to ignore current equality law.
Their eagerness to remove necessary rights from an entire class of people.
The way they have been prepared to undermine safeguarding.

Not to mention that women are not the only class they have turned their back on, there are also problems with their disability policies.

I'm not sure women (I mean the bio version here) are split.

I know most women (most people) would be OK with TWAW / TMAM as a general fluffy statement, but, as per the yougov survey that's often posted, if you dig into what they think that means it's not blanket support for the TRA position at all.

I think some women, mostly young, agree TWAW because they are indeed fully on board with "a woman is anyone who says they are a woman". Part of that is #BeKind but also (convinced by pithy but shallow slogans and mic-drops) they believe that tying womanhood to biology or in any way restricting what a woman is is restricting them as women. They see TW being seen as women and themselves being seen as more than the traditional/sexist version of a woman as two sides of the samecoin. They haven't yet lived long enough in a female body to understand how differently they are treated both physically and in respect to the political and social weight placed on their voices.

Howere I think the majority who agree TWAW do so because they assume it means "support those gentle, fragile souls who cannot live happily as their actual sex by treating them as if they were the opposite sex". I don't think it occurs to them to add the caveat "but only if they are physically transitioned or are on the path towards it with ongoing reviews and psychological support, and obviously not with people born male competing in women's sports or taking up women-only positions and opportunities, and obviously sexual assault is a deal breaker" because it never occurred to them any reasonable person would do any of that in the first place. The more this group see their assumption that #BeKind means #AndGetRespectAndConsiderationInReturn is wrong, the more they will start to say #ActuallyNoWeNeedSomeLimitsHere

No of course not. It would be like Oi Keir do you think you can make your mind up sp you’ve a chance? Don’t worry you can change your mind later

No. It would almost be worse than sticking by TWAW, it would just make him a weak weather vane who could easily flip back again.

Most of you have confirmed what I was thinking. It seems it is his hill to die on but as someone upthread said he has to trot out this mantra otherwise he would be out in a shot.

He'll be fighting the 2024 election on the back foot and will be asked this question over and over again as the media know this is his Achilles heels

Yes and Labour appear quite happy to be the forever opposition which is really really depressing. Conservatives have no credible threat for the foreseeable.

As people have regularly said about politics since watergate, it's not the act that brings people down, it's the cover up. It was what finally did for BJ.

Starmer is lying when he says TWAW. He doesn't believe it for a nanosecond. I'd actually be more inclined to support him if I thought he believed it. But pretending to believe something so as not to lose support with key parts of the electorate is straight out of Boris' playbook. Remember Boris didn't actually believe in Brexit, he just wanted to be PM.

They are not really interested in power so much as purity. Remember when Corbyn got thumped at the last election, his response was to say that Labour had "won the argument". As if that meant anything other than fuck all. Labour has always been (apart from the odd outbreak of professionalism under Wilson and Blair) a sixth form debating society. When one of your star commentators is Owen Jones you know you have arrived at twat central.

To get my vote back, Kier (and the other Labour grandees) do not have to stop saying TWAW.

What they need to do is to show they understand redefining the word woman in this way also changes everything for the original owners of the word and commit to making this enormous social change work honestly and fairly for both groups not just TW.

What they are currently doing, denying the reality that sex is a huge factor in how society treats a person, refusing to acknowledge that if TWAW is true that changes everything for all women, and painting the people who want these realities acknowledged and discussed, is chilling and I can't vote for them while they continue with this DARVO.

Because even if you don't think protecting women's right to exist as a political voice is as important as the other political issues of the day, once they see the electorate doesn't have a problem with them chucking reality under the bus, which inconvenient truth comes next?

As Johnson and Trump realised, if the electorate doesn't punish a party for telling known lies, what's the problem with lying?

The Tories "Fuck me, they really don't care when they KNOW we lie as long as they like the lie we tell them" moment was the Brexit bus. Will TWAW turn out to be Labour's?

This. I'm recoverable, but I need to see concrete pledges.

And bloody Nandy and Rayner a long way away from any ability to impact on women's rights.

I won't ever vote for him because I think he does believe that men and women have 'different minds', and sometimes a 'man body' is born with a 'woman mind'. I think this belief is offensively sexist. He also appears to lack the critical thinking ability and grasp of logic to see the harm that inevitably ensues to women of changing the legal and social definitions of womanhood in this way, as it is our bodies that make us vulnerable.

I don’t for a minute think he really believes TWAW.

Hemce I’d be pleased to see him talk sense.

He chose to pretend though. So he is either a fibber or a fool.

I used to vote based on thinking about who the most vulnerable person I knew was and whose policies would support that person better. That used to be Labour.

Now I apply that thinking to women because as a sex class women are the most vulnerable especially when you think of VAWG and disabled women.

This means the Tories are the best party but I really don't know if I can bring myself to vote for them.

I may have to research again how to officially spoil my vote so that it gets counted as a spoiler vote.

If Labour could find the courage to support women's rights I would no longer be lost in the wilderness. I don't see them being able to do that.

Labour have gone so far anti-women that I don’t trust what they say unless it is very clear. If they came out for:
single sex prisons, sports, nhs wards, and single sex facilities in schools, then I would consider voting for a Labour candidate as long as he/she was definitely behind that policy.

Women are split on the issue though away from the MN echo chamber. If they weren't then i'm sure he would as politicians need votes.

Most women are unaware of this issue because ,up until very recently nobody was talking about it. People are also for the most part quite kind and willing to support people whom they perceive as vulnerable, like traditional transexual people. However, this doesn't mean they actually believe they have changed sex and that they are not horrified to learn that male sex offenders are being sent to female prisons and women are losing their jobs for saying people can't change sex. I am afraid that those who believe TWAW are the ones living in the echo chamber

Whatever Starmer says, his cabinet will be Rayner, Nandy, Sobel, Lammy, Dodds... They will set departmental policies. It’s not good enough.

I had high hopes for him but he is an absolute weasel.